UKC Forums - rule question

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Posted by bigriver on 06-05-2009 07:05 PM:

rule question

hound and hunter format
4 dog cast dog a is struck in 1 minute goes by and dog a is put into a check the dog never leaves the strike area
after another 1 min and 30 sec goes by with only 30 sec to go in the 3 min clock dog b strikes in in the same strike area as dog a the dogs never make forward progress of any kind not even another bark from either dog

question is when 3 min clock expires do both dogs get minused or does dog b get a full 3 minutes of his own to move the rabbit

will let you know how it was scored after the comments
we put question mark on card and took it back to master of hounds

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Posted by upshurbeagler on 06-05-2009 07:24 PM:

Dog A gets minused 20 points when it takes 1 minute. Those points stay minused when dog B is struck. The clock restarts when dog B is struck in. The clock is then run on both dogs.

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Posted by MTNEERBP on 06-05-2009 10:22 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by upshurbeagler
Dog A gets minused 20 points when it takes 1 minute. Those points stay minused when dog B is struck. The clock restarts when dog B is struck in. The clock is then run on both dogs.

Thats what I think also Ron would be the way I handled it, would have went into another check -20 for both and then when 3 minutes got them would have drew a line through check points second check points for dog A thats is first would have stood and minused both dogs there strikes dog a -120 dog b -75 is this right fellows

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Posted by Kevin Watkins on 06-05-2009 11:44 PM:

That is right 100%.

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Posted by WildMountains on 06-06-2009 01:07 AM:

Tim Big River

i called ukc over this same matter when me you and rick howard had. When i called UKC Allen responded and said the three min clock restarts everytime a new dog is struck in. Before i called UKC i called four state reps and they all said I was right except one. I hope you have learned from this experience. If you are still unclear on this issue i am sure Allen will be more then happy to explain it to you as he did me. Because I remember in our cast you and Rick Howard would not restart the clock when new dogs struck in. Everyone makes mistakes. Maybe next time you will listen to others that have more experience in the matter.

Gary

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Posted by xdawgbeagles on 06-06-2009 04:19 AM:

A dog striking in is considered forward progress... So time starts all over again like said before.

2 quick suggestions...

I would call it Hunting Beagle verses Hound and Hunter...

And there is not a "Strike Area" in Hunting Beagle...

Hope this helps.
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Posted by Kevin Watkins on 06-06-2009 03:14 PM:

now if the second strike hound opened up on an obviouse split track,then you would not restart the clock on dog A,would be to seperate clocks.

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Posted by Halfway2 on 06-09-2009 06:56 PM:

I've seen it done both ways and it probably does need to be clarified in the rules for next year. I personally don't think you should start it over. Now your giving dog A 5 1/2 minutes to jump this rabbit. Just my opinion.

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Posted by xdawgbeagles on 06-10-2009 03:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Halfway2
I've seen it done both ways and it probably does need to be clarified in the rules for next year. I personally don't think you should start it over. Now your giving dog A 5 1/2 minutes to jump this rabbit. Just my opinion.

If the 2nd dog being struck is working the same track there isn't 2 ways to judge it. UKC has been very clear about a dog being struck is considered forward progress. Forward progress stops the clock.

Jack

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Posted by M and M KENNELS on 06-10-2009 02:44 PM:

I think this is a joke, your telling me that your giving dog a possibly 11 mins and 56 seconds to get a rabbit up and going after dogs b,c and d bail him out.

A dog getting struck in, in my opinion is not forward progress. Forward means to move onward or to advance, progress also means to move forward. Simply joining in is not forward progress, that or thoses dogs are at fault too.

Now some one is thinking well what if my dog was only in for 30 seconds. No he has been hunting the same amount of time as all the others... Go find a rabbit.

All this is, is a loop hole in the rules for a handler to either strike his dog in and possibly get better strike points than he deserves or a handler of dogs b,c or d to wait for your hound to bark three times until you have to strike them in hoping for the three to catch dog A and him to take minus.

There are to many unwritten rules in this format UKC needs to put all the rules for any scenario in black and white.

The 3 min rule should be used that's what its for a track that is over or not going anywhere. If I had to wait approx. 12 mins for my dogs to get a rabbit going I would find some better dogs.

I run both formats and there are rules that could change in both. I think this rule is one of them for sure. A bark is NOT FORWARD PROGRESS

UKC needs to take more pride in there organization and fix problems. It almost the middle of june and there still hasn't been a correct tally of state race points in the mag, and its been a month for the computer.

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Posted by LARRY DEAN on 06-10-2009 04:28 PM:

I agree

Travis, your right, atleast in the pp format, the dogs get 4 min to produce, doesnt matter if your in from the beginning or strike in at 3:30, your in and you better produce a rabbit.

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Posted by Kevin Watkins on 06-10-2009 04:46 PM:

Dogs B,C,and D,are now just as guilty as dog A when they strike in.I see your point of view and I can't say i agree with the rule,but look at it this way the 3 min gets dog A what are you to do then are you gonna catch dog A and cause interference with dogs B,C,and D who are still on the clock.Then all your doing is bailing out them dogs who are just as guilty as Dog A,I think the rule is the only proper way to do it.

Q

I think this is a joke, your telling me that your giving dog a possibly 11 mins and 56 seconds to get a rabbit up and going after dogs b,c and d bail him out.

A dog getting struck in, in my opinion is not forward progress. Forward means to move onward or to advance, progress also means to move forward. Simply joining in is not forward progress, that or thoses dogs are at fault too.

Now some one is thinking well what if my dog was only in for 30 seconds. No he has been hunting the same amount of time as all the others... Go find a rabbit.

All this is, is a loop hole in the rules for a handler to either strike his dog in and possibly get better strike points than he deserves or a handler of dogs b,c or d to wait for your hound to bark three times until you have to strike them in hoping for the three to catch dog A and him to take minus.

There are to many unwritten rules in this format UKC needs to put all the rules for any scenario in black and white.

The 3 min rule should be used that's what its for a track that is over or not going anywhere. If I had to wait approx. 12 mins for my dogs to get a rabbit going I would find some better dogs.

I run both formats and there are rules that could change in both. I think this rule is one of them for sure. A bark is NOT FORWARD PROGRESS

UKC needs to take more pride in there organization and fix problems. It almost the middle of june and there still hasn't been a correct tally of state race points in the mag, and its been a month for the computer. [/QUOTE]

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Posted by M and M KENNELS on 06-10-2009 06:58 PM:

No I don't think so.

I like and try to breed a beagle to bark when they have a rabbit not when they think they have one or where there was one there yesterday.

To answer your question about what are you going to do about interfearing with the other dogs pick them all up and move to a new area and recast.

All I'm trying to say is when I strike my dog in at a hunt it should be because they have jumped a rabbit Not they think they smell a rabbit. If I got bailed out on a strike and won the cast that dog does NOT deserve that cast win.

And Jeremy I'm glad you agree but I'm not saying change to 4 but if the clock is on its on for that track or rabbit not the dog. There is room for improvement but I think there is no one with new ideas in the position to makes these changes.

Posted by TOUCHSTONEBEAGL on 06-10-2009 08:03 PM:

No strike area. When a second dog strikes in the clock starts over. Probably to keep the second dog from being minused due to the first dogs boohooin around. Second dog gets 3 minutes to get it goin. Sometimes not even the same rabbit. If a dog does too much barking over nothin it may get saved some but will likely eat some minus in a 2 hr cast. In a one hour "lucky dog wins" winners pack it may have enough luck to earn its win and go on to become a Ch.

Posted by LARRY DEAN on 06-10-2009 11:43 PM:

Travis, not saying change to 4 just commenting on how the pp does it, Also Dan I agree, most of the times the rules work, not always does this happen, most times when theres no obvious track, ocasionally it will maybe draw a dog in , but after the next 3, if the others keep quiet they will be minused and then you go on. Also Travis I agree with you on the strike dogs. I only keep tight mouthed dogs that only bark when there's a rabbit. Theres alot of times when I strike my dogs on the first thing that comes out of their mouths. Thats how it should be, I know its how I like it when it comes to the real test, hunting season. I wouldn't give a penny for some of these so-called beagles that alot of people out here have, that bark on a 3 day old track, and then 100 yds later the second dog jumps the rabbit and makes ole loose mouth look like a super star. I'm happy with what I have.

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Posted by M and M KENNELS on 06-11-2009 03:50 AM:

Couldn't have said it better my self

Posted by MIKE CARDER on 06-11-2009 06:25 PM:

I agree

What i cant stand is when a dog strikes and the clock gets put on them, then the next thing you know100 yards away another dog opens and runs the track and that saves the dog that was put on the clock. it actually pisses me off. most of the time the dog that was on the clock ( i would say) 95% , moves to where the second dog opened, not running the track to it and still recieves credit.

Posted by Jeremy Mapes on 06-11-2009 07:03 PM:

It does suck when mouthy dogs get bailed out by this rule, but there really isn't any way to change it to where other dogs won't be penalized. If you pick the first dog up then you have to pick the second dog up too and he may not have had three minutes to produce. Nine times out of ten a mouthy will not win. The only time a mouthy dog is successful is if you're in a honey hole that is just loaded with rabbits, and then he's still probably gonna have to show his worth on the track when you score lines.

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Posted by M and M KENNELS on 06-12-2009 01:45 AM:

Why does everyone think that each individual dog needs three mins to produce a rabbit. I know this is kinda how the rule is now. But each dog does not need three mins to get a rabbit going is my point. Put a 3,4or even a 5 min rule in on a track once its over minus them.

And I don't know about anyone else but if I'm going to hunt a format that requires me to see a rabbit to get plus points I'm going to a honey hole every time, and everyone should be doing the same.

You might be right 9 out of 10 times a mouthy dog won't win but why should he have a 10% chance of doing it.

I'm not trying to ruffle ANYONES FEATHERS here I just don't understand the reasoning of this rule.

Posted by justsandm on 06-12-2009 03:18 AM:

I like PKC's rules the best. Cut and dry. Simple.

Posted by xdawgbeagles on 06-12-2009 03:42 AM:

Fellas Hunting Beagle rules are cut and dry as well. If its 2 different tracks run 2 clocks...

Hunting Beagle works... Its grown exponentially over the last few years...

As long as your willing to accept the rules as they are and not make up your own while you go it really isn't bad.

UKC says a dog striking in is considered forward progress (if the mouthy dog is in check he can't regain his 20). After 3 minutes of no forward progress the track is dead. If another dog opens off (split track) minus which ever dog pulls. If they don't pull start time on both tracks and score accordingly.

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Posted by BDB on 06-12-2009 03:59 AM:

interesting topic

what is interesting, is how the dog that is at the place of where the first dog was struck in at and now is out a hundred yards away and finally strikes in, sounds to me like the second dog did a sneak away and running silent till he gets away from other hounds .
this is a no no according to rules . resulting in a scratch ..

Posted by LARRY DEAN on 06-12-2009 02:42 PM:

Re: interesting topic

quote:
Originally posted by BDB
what is interesting, is how the dog that is at the place of where the first dog was struck in at and now is out a hundred yards away and finally strikes in, sounds to me like the second dog did a sneak away and running silent till he gets away from other hounds .
this is a no no according to rules . resulting in a scratch ..

Not saying that wouldn't ever happen, but most cases, a cold nosed dog opens either on the eventual track, or just whatever, then the second dog not silent tracking, he's tracking to where the rabbit is and jumps it or opens where it was just at.

Also Jack, if the rules were never to be changed, why do they have a rules committee every few years...
Travis I agree, I've said this many times and never get a good answer from all the so-called people that really know. Why is it that you can run a track for 45 min, dont see the rabbit, score checks, but when the track is over, possibly minus the dogs. They need to start rewarding the dogs where its needed, Thats another reason why most of the rules of the pp reward dog work, over slick handleing, bending the rules, and pencil whipping...

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Posted by M and M KENNELS on 06-12-2009 02:54 PM:

I'm NOT saying PP is better...

I like it better because the dogs are scored for running the entire track not just the 10ft area were the rabbit was seen.Alot of times that front dog just got there and didn't slot up and run on the track.

I agree with minusing the dogs if I don't see the rabbit. If I was gun hunting I would be pissed if I didn't have a chance to shoot the rabbit. That's what this format is all about. I just don't agree with giving a coldtrailer a chance of winning a cast.

Posted by DAVE S on 06-12-2009 04:26 PM:

NOSE

Be careful that you don't breed your dogs into the no nose dogs I see many times. The mouth at times seems tied to the nose. Yes the brain comes in also. But when conditions change and you have a very dry year or dry years watch out. SOME of those "only bark when its up" dogs can't smell anything. I have seen 6 dogs on the ground(while hunting) with one dog "boo hooing" around and no one else barking. Everyone looking on in disgust even the dog owner. That was until the big nose dog kicked out the bunny right in front of everyone. The other dogs could not smell it and we would have never even known it was there. We can get so worried about taking a minus that we keep on breeding the weaker nose to the weaker nose. Sooner or later you have dogs that can only run on the best of days. I have been to the Eliminator a couple times when conditions were bad and a big nose would have been nice to have in the pack. I hate a babbler also but be careful going to far the other way. Our Missouri conditions at times have been tough.

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