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The Whole Bloodine Thing!

THIS IS BASED ON THE WALKER BREED BECAUSE THATS ALL I REALLY KNOW!.

2 PARTS

P1:

A question the other night got me going again on this.

Everytime a dog is posted forsale on here without a 3 gen pedigree attached to the post people always ask "whats he out of". or when in a hunt and a young dog does well people always wanna know "whats the sire" hell they wanna know how many times harry is back there.

what I wanna know is where does the whole whos back there actually stop? is it 4 generations? 3 generations? 2? 1?

now I understand dogs can get something's from their ancestors but what is it?

how can people say their dog got anything from a dog that is 3 generations back? that's like saying I have my great great grandfathers speaking voice.

the easiest example I hear from around the walker breed is about harry. people own a dog that shows harry in its 3rd generation when they see something in the pup that reminds them of harry they say "that's that harry blood" but you never hear people saying "that's that harry blood" when the pup shows rebel in the 3rd generation. why is that? they have the exact same blood? harry and rebel are brothers, but they were night and day. their pups were night and day. people don't say that's hayes blood. what im saying is how can you expect anymore in a litter of pups other than what the parents are?

I feel like people are putting to much Infosys on dogs that are recognizable within the breed from years back. these dogs were huge based on their reproducing records. reproducing records are built on popularity, marketing, and what the particular dog has won. would harry have been able to be a top reproducers without ball promoting him? would mojo have been a huge success if he hadn't have won 2 triple crowns and high finishes on pkc's biggest stage? would bone be one of the top studs of the current time without winning truck hunts and large purses?

seems to me producing comes from accomplishments more so than just being a great coon dog.

whats to say the best reproducing dogs of all time aren't just tied out behind the barn and never had the opportunity to be set out on a big stage?
...............................................................................

P2


what would happen if you built a 14 dog pedigree out dogs that were never ever cut close in the woods. never given a chance, they were just house dogs? would the pups out of 4th generation litter tree coons if given the chance? does not having hunting parents, grandparents, great grandparents effect the outcome of the pups? or will the pups makes it based strictly on the fact that their hounds and they are hunting dogs by nature?

if this makes sense to you and you agree that pups out of non-hunting generations can make coon dogs then what does it matter whats in the 3rd generation?

this post wasn't written to offend anyone or their dogs. dogs used in this were just examples, recognizable names.

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Marshall, I don't know anything about Walkers, but the same thing happens in the Black & Tan breed. Someone will have a black dog for sale and say he's Ace bred. When you look at the pedigree Ace will be in the 3rd or 4th generation and none of the other dogs will have Ace blood and be a different strain altogether. I guess people think if the most well known dog is shown in the add people will be quicker to buy.

quote:

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Originally posted by J I Allen
...,... I guess people think if the most well known dog is shown in the add people will be quicker to buy.

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__________________
ringtail dave

"TREE MY DOG" - NO BETTER FEELING

NAADP Charter Member....... appointed by King Dave himself........

It don't matter how many times the same dog is in the ped unless all the dogs that put it there had that dogs traits to pass.
or there is a strong clear line of dogs with those same traits dominant.
my dogs mother was line bred off two direct sons of Red Eagle Dick. she showed all Red Eagle Dick /Crowding Billy traits.
My dogs sire was Sackett Jr, who reproduced the traits of the females bred to him.
Although my hound was directly out of Jr, I always considered him a Red Eagle Dick bred dog because of the Dick traits he had.

__________________
Randal Raper -
RED EAGLE MACK BRED WALKER DOGS

I understand dogs can get something's from their ancestors but what is it?

Well Marshall, the answer to that question is just about as versatile as asking which came first, the chicken or the egg, lol.

Let me start by stating back in 1976/1977 through 1986/1987 all my dogs had that BIG long bawl BOOMING locate that any child could tell when they were coming treed. Then in about 1989/1990 a buddy of mine and myself made a cross on his old female. My male dog had the big booming locate, his female had the triple chop locate. His female was a dominant reproducer of mouth and locate. Her name was Barrett's Star. The more I line bred after 1990 the more dominant that triple locate has become in my line of dogs. No this female was not a nationally known hound but she was a coon treeing machine. This is 2016 and I have a year old pup right now that throws that same triple locate as her mother, and her mother is 4 generations from the Star female I just told you about. Now out of the past 5 generation of 4 of those 5 have had the triple locate. Where Star got it from I don't know, but since putting that female in my bloodline the triple locate has seemed to over ride the big booming locate that anybody can call. It is then my opinion "that is how you can trace back certain traits to certain dog. The key is to have had the experience of hunting with those dogs behind the one you are hunting and then seeing for yourself, what it is they do similar and what it is that they do different.

Hope this helps explain it just a little!!

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You put 100 questions in a 2 part question, I can tell you this if a line of dogs is line bred and kept up with the way they should be it is very possible that you have a 8th Generation dog show up that is close to what the 1st Generation dogs were or you could have one show up in any of the Generations or you may never see any that even come close although if it was done right and the genes lined up you will see it in some of the offspring, All my dogs are line bred and i have a 2 year old male here now that looks,hunts,acts,same mouth, As a male i had over 20 years ago and the only difference is this dog is a little smaller .

The reason you see people put a big name out on a dog for sale is for the sales pitch and the reason people ask that is a line preference they are looking for because all lines hunt different and i guess they like Ole Harry or Ole Finley River blood dogs or any other line out there and the traits will get passed down from start to finish .

It's the box of chocolates thing! If you out cross continually there is really no way unless you hunted with several of the ancestors, then you can pick out a trait or 2 from the ones you hunted with. I like breeding to old sires that have lots of pups over years on the ground, then i see what the common traits are. Allot of sires are on the list because of shear numbers.

If you just want the best dog to tree a coon with pedigree does not matter! If you care about the traits in a line of hounds pedigree matters, you have to "work" to keep certain traits going or you will have a box of chocolates.
I do not want certain lines in my hounds because i know what they throw, so i look at the pedigree to keep them out.
I try to get them to look and sound alike, heart and personalities are upon each individual.
So i guess to me, I pick a sire for traits in his offspring before i pick a sire who is a big time winner.
I also make sure the sire is consistent with one or both of his parents
Most of my coonhunting friends don't care where there hound came from as long as he will put one up a tree.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

If you breed a line long enough and keep them close, every new litter will have a throw back to a certain dog you had before
But not many are willing or have the resources to do it anymore.

It is so much easier to just go breed the best available to the best available, and produce Treeing Walkers, That is what most have to do, winners are the easiest tool to do that with. And that is taking nothing from their winning, they may be the best coon treer ever, that has nothing to do with there reproducing.

Getting the most coon up a tree in one hr(example) is not a sure sign he produces balanced pups for the next generation.
That's my take and im sticking with it, till i am proven wrong, which may not take long. LOL Got to get to work.

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Rocketman, Conrad, you both hit the nail on the head as far as a dog still having the same traits as a dog in it's 3rd or 4th generation and that's line breeding. Most people breed to the flavor of the day, very few people try to line breed which will keep the positive traits you want as well as maybe some of the traits you don't want. I read a article in a beagle magazine several years ago on how to set the traits in a line of dogs using only 3 or 4 dogs. It took about 7 generations to get the traits established that you were trying to get, but people today would not want to take that long to try for that.

Rocketman, Conrad, you both hit the nail on the head as far as a dog still having the same traits as a dog in it's 3rd or 4th generation and that's line breeding. Most people breed to the flavor of the day, very few people try to line breed which will keep the positive traits you want as well as maybe some of the traits you don't want. I read a article in a beagle magazine several years ago on how to set the traits in a line of dogs using only 3 or 4 dogs. It took about 7 generations to get the traits established that you were trying to get, but people today would not want to take that long to try for that.

How's this for line breeding?


......................Gr.Nt.Ch.'PR' Dohoney's Boone
..................Gr.Ch.Gr.Nt.Ch.'PR' Dohoney's Lobo
......................'PR' Dohoney's Misty
.............Nt.Ch.'PR' Oneil's Lobo Benson
......................Gr.Ch.Gr.Nt.Ch.'PR' Southern Pines Jet
.............Ch.'PR' Swampmusic Little Bit Sassy
......................Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.'PR' Cedar Run Jammin Ginger

Gr.Ch. Swampmusic Hit-Man

............................Gr.Ch.Nt.Ch.'PR' Tar Heel Nitro
..............'PR' Lambert's Pork Chop
...........................'PR' Payne's Yadkin River Snoody
............'PR' Lester's Country Style Ruby
.........................Gr.Nt.Ch.'PR' Huff's Stylish Banjo
...........'PR' Wilcox's Upper Creek Queen
.........................Ch.Nt.Ch.'PR' Paynter's Treeing Patty


Pups


..............Gr.Ch.Gr.Nt.Ch.'PR' Dohoney's Lobo
........Gr.Ch.'PR' Swampmusic Boone
.............Ch.'PR' Swampmusic Little Bit Sassy
.....Gr.Ch.'PR' Swampmusic Pride
..............'PR' Byer's Clear Creek Sackett
........Ch.'PR' Johnson Potts Creek Dolly
..............'PR' Byers Potts Creek Ginnie

Ch. Swampmusic Honey Bee

.............Gr.Ch.Gr.Nt.Ch.'PR' Dohoney's Lobo
.......Nt.Ch.'PR' Oneil's Lobo Benson
.............Ch.'PR' Swampmusic Little Bit Sassy
....Ch.'PR' Swampmusic Miss Mary
..............'PR' Lambert's Pork Chop
.......'PR' Lester's Country Style Ruby
...........'PR' Wilcox's Upper Creek Queen

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Swampmusic Kennel
Remembering Our Past......
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Dohoney's Lobo
Ch.Swampmusic Lil Bit Sassy
Ch.Swampmusic Misty Shadow
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Boone
Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Pride
But Looking To The Future...

Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch.Swampmusic Big Hoss




Dennis Robinson
Cell 540-295-3892

No one has taken a stab at part 2 yet lol

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If your talking about me asking him a question about the starting foundation of his dogs I already know the answer I was just giving him a brain teaser I thought he would have found it by now lol !

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
If your talking about me asking him a question about the starting foundation of his dogs I already know the answer I was just giving him a brain teaser I thought he would have found it by now lol !

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Part 2 Is kinda a trick question, Yes I believe they would still tree, but there is no way to cull the bad ones, so you could start slipping in area's and not know. Therefore breeding dogs that are lazy etc... Traits should be what you are breeding for, not just dogs that tree.
Always remember it can be bred in, a whole lot faster than it can be bred out

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Part 2: Go ask the poodle breeders! Poodles were originally bred to retrieve ducks. I would bet its pretty tough to find a good duck dog in that breed. Or for that matter go ask anyone with a breed of dog that has only been shown/not used for their original purpose for generations. I believe the answer will be that every so often an individual dog will be able to do the job it was originally bred for but I wouldn't be surprised if for every good working dog you find there are a 100 that don't have a clue. I would think 4 generations of indiscriminate breeding would be just enough to turn coonhounds into couchhounds. We have plenty of couchhounds the way it is already!

__________________
What comes around goes around!

Blind hog

even a blind hog will find an acorn once in a while

Part 2
I know of an old fellow in Georgia that bought some hounds from good bloodlines-- due to having a heart attack shortly there after, he did not hunt-- bred at least 3 generations from them and produced a good number of hounds that were pretty darn good in the woods and on the tree. one of his original dogs was more that a little mean BUT he had made him that way because he thought one wanted them that way..was soon told how silly that thinking was..

I think if you bred several generations without hunting and proving it can and will go either way as without culling the duds, those could pop up a lot quicker,

A quick way to find out part two is talk to the bench show people some of their pedigrees are full of non titled dogs far as hunting titled dogs but every once in a while one pops up out of their stuff that's a coon dog.

Conrad and Doug

Conrad- with every pup that is born you are taking a risk that it will have bad traits bred in to it. If you look in today's lines of dog it is hard to find a pedigree that isn't tainted somewhere. Therefore wouldn't the risk almost be the same? If the 4th gen were all true Coon dogs that you would own yourself wouldnt that be a good enough foundation to compare to what's being bred today? It would be a absolute rarity for a hunter to have hunted with all 14 hounds in a 3 gen pedigree so who's to say what one of those hounds flaws actually was.

Doug- I bet the number is more that 100 for every good coonhound. So having non working hounds for 3 generations could potentially change their genetic make up and the nature of the hound?

I'm not arguing. I'm just trying to learn from people who have been around longer than me. I'm really curious about how hounds are made.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
A quick way to find out part two is talk to the bench show people some of their pedigrees are full of non titled dogs far as hunting titled dogs but every once in a while one pops up out of their stuff that's a coon dog.

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Marshall I was talking about me asking hobo about Boone creek Mike , crows boss , and Normans coonstopper having the same daddy I wanted him to tell me who it was all that dohoneys blood he should know top notch layup blood. That's what I mean on the bench show dogs they don't usually get hunted but some dog way back in there passed on its coon treeing traits.

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Marshall I was talking about me asking hobo about Boone creek Mike , crows boss , and Normans coonstopper having the same daddy I wanted him to tell me who it was all that dohoneys blood he should know top notch layup blood.

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.

Marshall a percentage of them would make it. Just like a percentage of the pups doing things the way we do it now, make it. Here is the thing.
We have now two ways to breed with many shades of gray throw in between. You are offering another way completely separate form those.

1. We have people that study the dogs pedigrees and understand the traits (genetics) the different lines of hounds offer. Those people then select the best pups from those lines they can that represent those genetics and they breed the best to the best. Your example a Harry Dog--They come in a variety of examples. But if there are characteristics in some pups of a TRUE HARRY dog and only those HARRY dogs were bred by someone that understood them. You could say your breeding HARRY DOGS.
2. Some people are just going to breed dogs because of the name and don't understand the characteristics that made the name popular. If they choose all the HARRY dogs to breed that have different characteristics than what represents HARRY dogs. Then even though the name is there the characteristics is not.
3. Now we get into many shades of grey. People trying to do a good job but instead of understanding characteristics of a line of hounds, they just breed the winners of those lines. Say you have a line of hounds that has a tremendous bawl mouth and it is repeated and repeated. But a winner from that line shows up with a awful chop mouth. It gets bred because its name represents the line of hounds and it is a winner. The bawl mouth is on the way out.
4. Your way of all dogs not being hunted would work to give us coon treeing dogs. Probably close the percentage we are doing right now because we are doing a poor job of maintaining lines of hounds. Thing is we haven't hunted them to see if their characteristics represent the HARRY dog in their pedigree that we are going to use to describe them.
So the choice all the breeders have to make. Either HARRY by name or HARYY by characteristics.
One thing which has become not correct to talk about on here is to CULL a dog. That is used to remove the dog from the breeding circle that does not have the characteristics the breeder bred for.
I think the characteristics of many lines have been lost. Many of the breeders that understand these principles also have been lost. We hear the saying. Breed the Best to the Best. Yes that is better than some other ways. But if your HARRY dog is in a pedigree and you want to call the pups a HARRY dog you breed the BEST with HARRY like characteristics. Cull the non HARRY characteristics. This is what we are not doing and have not been doing for some time.

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Re: .

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Marshall a percentage of them would make it. Just like a percentage of the pups doing things the way we do it now, make it. Here is the thing.
We have now two ways to breed with many shades of gray throw in between. You are offering another way completely separate form those.

1. We have people that study the dogs pedigrees and understand the traits (genetics) the different lines of hounds offer. Those people then select the best pups from those lines they can that represent those genetics and they breed the best to the best. Your example a Harry Dog--They come in a variety of examples. But if there are characteristics in some pups of a TRUE HARRY dog and only those HARRY dogs were bred by someone that understood them. You could say your breeding HARRY DOGS.
2. Some people are just going to breed dogs because of the name and don't understand the characteristics that made the name popular. If they choose all the HARRY dogs to breed that have different characteristics than what represents HARRY dogs. Then even though the name is there the characteristics is not.
3. Now we get into many shades of grey. People trying to do a good job but instead of understanding characteristics of a line of hounds, they just breed the winners of those lines. Say you have a line of hounds that has a tremendous bawl mouth and it is repeated and repeated. But a winner from that line shows up with a awful chop mouth. It gets bred because its name represents the line of hounds and it is a winner. The bawl mouth is on the way out.
4. Your way of all dogs not being hunted would work to give us coon treeing dogs. Probably close the percentage we are doing right now because we are doing a poor job of maintaining lines of hounds. Thing is we haven't hunted them to see if their characteristics represent the HARRY dog in their pedigree that we are going to use to describe them.
So the choice all the breeders have to make. Either HARRY by name or HARYY by characteristics.
One thing which has become not correct to talk about on here is to CULL a dog. That is used to remove the dog from the breeding circle that does not have the characteristics the breeder bred for.
I think the characteristics of many lines have been lost. Many of the breeders that understand these principles also have been lost. We hear the saying. Breed the Best to the Best. Yes that is better than some other ways. But if your HARRY dog is in a pedigree and you want to call the pups a HARRY dog you breed the BEST with HARRY like characteristics. Cull the non HARRY characteristics. This is what we are not doing and have not been doing for some time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Marshall I was talking about me asking hobo about Boone creek Mike , crows boss , and Normans coonstopper having the same daddy I wanted him to tell me who it was all that dohoneys blood he should know top notch layup blood. That's what I mean on the bench show dogs they don't usually get hunted but some dog way back in there passed on its coon treeing traits.

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