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Sibling reproducers

I’ve been really studying pedigrees lately and crosses that seem to have worked or certain dogs that reach the status of reproducers. One thing that makes me curious is the siblings and what separated them....for example:

Old South Stylish Rebel and Ball’s Stylish Hickory Nut Harry

Insane Cain and Insane X

Rat Attack and brothers

Sackett Jr....did he have a brother

LIPPER and....well his brother

List goes on and on...

Was it just volume of females that separated them or what


You even see it on the females....you’ll here, such and such stud dog crosses great on “fill in the blank” females. I tend to believe it is all about genetics. Certain genes produce voice volume, tree power, track power, desire to hunt, cold nose/hot nose, and looks obviously. We see these in crosses that has been made.

Winning percentages is training....alone or pack is trained, and accuracy is also trained,

So With all that, is there a difference in breeding to siblings? Does anyone believe that stud owners that have owned siblings in the past got them mixed up in the breeding pen and the same results occurred.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

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Tim Green
Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

Studs

30 years ago the most popular studs like nailor ,sackett Jr, swamp rooster had a whole army hunting pups for them but not anymore there's still a few dogs getting bred some but not many the numbers game has a lot to do with also the man studding lipper in mo. told me 1 good cross can make a stud dog just look at xjr. and insane Jane cross

Well we all know ford makes ford and Chevy makes Chevy and the Chinese make cheaper knock off parts that fit both and work just the same.


Tar

Littemates or full siblings can be as different in actions and genetic as unrelated dogs from my experiences.

I can't think of one example of two littermates dominantly throwing the same characteristics in a large percentage of their offspring.

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Travis Brown
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Tim Green

Tim, I disagree on accuracy being trained, ALL of the really accurate digs that I have owned or hunted with were naturally accurate dogs. Now you may correct some dogs and improve their accuracy, but the natural are still the most accurate dogs, more so than a man made dog. Accuracy to me is a natural trait that one does not have to train to get in a dog. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Re: Tim Green

Dave,

I understand what your saying, but would you say accuracy is improved upon by repetition. Basically the more a dog is hunted, they have more experience with the old ring tail’s tricks. I don’t think you can teach true treeing ability or tracking ability. Those are obviously inherited.

What lines of walkers in your experience have been born with above average accuracy? Just different than others.


Thanks

Tim

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Tim Green
Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

Tim Green

Yes, I think repetition is what makes a dog better, they are born with the ability, but it has to be honed over time. My hunting buddy age 82 in Jan. Is very fond of the word repetition, he is one of the best trainers around and he knows that giving a dog the hunting time it needs is the way you sharpen a dogs skills. No different than a man that practices his trade, he gets better with time from repeating the same action over and over and learning from his mistakes. I will get the pedigree from 2 of the most accurate dogs I have seen in many years and post their bloodlines, both are Walker dogs. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

When he said accuracy is trained for, it was like finger nails on a blackboard.

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Donald Bergeron

quote:

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Originally posted by shadinc
When he said accuracy is trained for, it was like finger nails on a blackboard.

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id quit looking at the dogs, and look at the breeders, some breeders have the ability to put pups on the ground that consistently perform, and I think most of them have a family of females that consistently reproduce.

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It's all about who gets the pups.

And who does the advertising! Some couldve ran a beagle at stud and people would hunt the pups

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GOOD POINT! Randy

I wonder how many of those $5,000 weaning puppies titled out or won world hunts ?



Tar

quote:

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Originally posted by pigsit
id quit looking at the dogs, and look at the breeders, some breeders have the ability to put pups on the ground that consistently perform, and I think most of them have a family of females that consistently reproduce.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

I have fooled with a lot of different pups over the last 25 years, usually bought two at a time to start, picked which one i liked and moved on. Only on one occasion did both pups turn out and were pups i could take to town and win with, and they had different styles in how they did their work. I still like to get pups out of sires and dams that have littermates that are hunted and tree coons, even though they may have different styles, and they may not all be in the top 1% but in my opinion you stand a better chance of getting something if there are syblings produce game. The pups that show up here with the right stuff to start with make me look like a good dog trainer, the ones that have shown up here without the right stuff make me look like a rookie!

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Dean Jamerson

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Travis Brown
[B]I can't think of one example of two littermates dominantly throwing the same characteristics in a large percentage of their offspring

I can. Tennessee Big Wheel and Tennesse Fiddler were two brothers that were #1 and #2 reproducers in the black and tan breed that were outstanding reproducers. They even had a half brother named General Jackson that reproduced real good. All were sired by Tennessee Wheeler.

The best stud hound in the world might be in a pleasure hunters dog pen. And that pleasure hunter is not going to promote that dog. He might raise one litter keep one give the rest away to other pleasure hunters. Most wil be a mix of the most popular bloodlines of the day except the last 2 generations which will be 'pr' In short it's the numbers of pups and which competition hunter is promoting either the stud the dog is out of or with hopes of making a stud which will be bred good or no one will breed to a dog that has 2 grnts. in the 3rd generation. So who got the litter mates to oh so and so? I right now have the litter mate to 1 of the most popular stud hounds of the day and is fine hound and has never been in a hunt.

quote:

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Originally posted by Clovis A Nailor
The best stud hound in the world might be in a pleasure hunters dog pen. And that pleasure hunter is not going to promote that dog. He might raise one litter keep one give the rest away to other pleasure hunters. Most wil be a mix of the most popular bloodlines of the day except the last 2 generations which will be 'pr' In short it's the numbers of pups and which competition hunter is promoting either the stud the dog is out of or with hopes of making a stud which will be bred good or no one will breed to a dog that has 2 grnts. in the 3rd generation. So who got the litter mates to oh so and so? I right now have the litter mate to 1 of the most popular stud hounds of the day and is fine hound and has never been in a hunt.

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HITT KENNELS
YADKIN TAR HOUNDS
Robert & Corey Hitt

In the Walker breed (The House That Lipper Built) you would be hard pressed to find a hound that isn't breed similar to your hunting buddies dog. In my world (Bonecollector Country) every dog is a Bonecollector dog since he was a local hound and the best I ever seen go. But you still see all kinds of styles of hunting and they are all bred very much a like. Go a mile ambush dogs, open old style trailing dogs, silent track dogs. I bought a go a mile ambush dog and when I got through with her she's a 400 yard dog and I maybe wrong but keeping her close she started opening on track and not so much ambush. And speed dropped cause she just wasn't running trough the woods looking for one to ambush but actually hunting. Did that happen cause of genetics or training to my style?

My opinion would be both training and genetics. If you now the bloodline and the ways to make the dogs work and click. It also matters on style of dog you prefer. I personally dont like blow out of the country dogs. I would rather hunt a independent close range hunter. If you could create that you could dominate in competition and would be enjoyable pleasure dog.

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HITT KENNELS
YADKIN TAR HOUNDS
Robert & Corey Hitt

So in the end does genetics mean anything, ABSOLUTELY. But if ole so and so doesn't hit the hunts and does some big time winning people don't want any pups out of that dog. If the dog isn't promoted on Facebook no one is going to want any pups out of that dog. They could have a top hound and maybe people say oh I don't like ole so and so, we don't want any pups out of that dog. So I say my hunting buddy has a old Walker dog that's putting it on me quite often so I'm carrying my best female over there when she comes in. He'll take a pup because he knows I have a good solid hound I'll keep a pup and give the rest away. And nobody will ever know what a top reproducer that dog was cause he will be dead and gone if a competition hunter happens to gets one of them pups. Now how many times has this happened?

So everyone can see, winning in competition is the modern day definition of reproducing. I say modern day, because I feel dogs of the past were measured differently. A dog had to tree a coon, because that was the extra money. Hides were high and dogs had to tree coons to make that money. People hunted these dogs during the week and then took them to town....they won by Treeing coons. When the hide prices fell, so came the need to make money else where.....so along came money hunts. Dogs were taught to win not necessarily tree coons. It became a handlers game. Also came along “all grand”. I am one of those all grand guys because although people say it doesn’t matter, it does help to sell pups, but I’ll turn anyone of mine out any night you want. I want coon tree’ers. Are they perfect, no...but they go hunt.

I hope to see some of the pups that breathed their first breath here at my house achieve greatness in the competition world, but honestly....I get more out of the calls or messages from pup owners telling me about their pup and how great it is.

Thanks for all the comments so far. I am seriously trying to make good crosses with certain lines, only time will tell.

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Tim Green
Retired Air Force 24+ years
Disabled Veteran

I like Lipper dogs because I had a Lipper pup that was a good hound. I like Nailor dogs because I had a pup out of Nailor that was the best hound I ever owned. I like Bonecollector dogs because I hunted with him and seen what a amazing dog he was. And I'll breed to my hunting buddies dog because I like most everything about him. I like Trackman dogs because I haven't hunted with one that wasn't a straight up coondog. Now that's some popular names. But I've built off those dogs what I could never do in the competition ring. They did it for me and I built some nice pleasure dogs out of them so called crazy competition dogs. So then these every day pleasure pr dogs I have now can tree a coon with leaving the country. Wondering why my hounds tree coons without leaving the country with all these crazy slick treeing competition dogs in their background. Maybe because I hunt them the way I want them to hunt not how they want to hunt. So genetics sure. Training sure. Turning them loose I think is the biggest thing. Maybe you're hunting buddy has a better dog than the one 500 miles away.