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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-16-2012 07:29 PM:

Show Question

What is the proper speed to gait one?
i have heard differnt things just want your opinion.
i will start any speed that is best for handler and dog.

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Posted by Sandi on 10-16-2012 07:41 PM:

when I attended handling class the coach said it varies on each dog. Size and the the topline are very important in learning your dogs speed. I use to get yelled at all the time for going to fast lol but that is when I handled gem

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Posted by Showman on 10-16-2012 07:51 PM:

also

What is the percentage a judge should base the gait on some say 20 percent and some say the use 70 percent on the ground also is the gait the same for all 7 breeds the 7 breed standards ate different

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Posted by Cynthia on 10-16-2012 07:54 PM:

gait is determined by the dog. watch the dog gaiting on it own, say loose in the yard if possible. notice how they will extend their legs and the topline levels out...that is the speed. another thing is to get someone with video camera and tape you and dog gaiting. watch and see if your help with gait matches the dogs natural gait. keep in mind that you may have to RUN with the dog while it moves...esp if you have shorter legs. you also want to keep the dog moving in a straight line and not wobble. a wall or fence works well for this exercise. keeping dog between you and wall while going both ways. practice.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-16-2012 08:02 PM:

i like it so far but i cant run.how much deduction.

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I don't run scared, I run to scare!

Posted by LMBEDDINGFIELD on 10-16-2012 08:37 PM:

My general rule of thumb

Good general rule of thumb is on the down and back do it at a slightly slower speed (not a creeping crawl) because they are looking at the dog front to back... a fast pace will naturally draw in the dogs hind legs that is normal and natural but not what a judge is looking for on a down and back... when you are asked to take a dog around this is when you use a faster pace. They are looking for the drive of the dog from the side.... you can not properly show the dogs power or dirve in the stride at a slow pace... you do not always have to run but with some dogs you do have to get up a move a little bit to be able to enhance the dogs proper and natural speed...and yes in some situations almost a run can be required.

Like Cynthia said have someone use the video on their phone and do down and backs and different speeds and to and around at a different speed and you will be able to see the best and most natural speed for the dogs in these situations.

Penny I would just try to find the best natural speed to where you and the dog are comfortable at that speed. Example Gracie's natural speed is a lot slower than the rest of my dogs and everyone of mine are a little different. You just have to work at it the best you can and find the right comfort zone.

If a judge is using the ground work for the biggest part of their decision they are not doing anyone any favors... Even a good conformation judge will give a dog a good look over before they make a decision to check structure. Yes the gait plays into the overall assesment of the dog but is by no means all that needs to be considered.....

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-16-2012 08:44 PM:

The gaiting Question ANSWERED

All a person needs to do is go to the major shows to get the answer to this question. GAITING is used as the most catchall answer why a dog gets beat. GAITING is one word that will be the demise of the U K C BENCH SHOW. GAITING was brought to the forefront by one individual who gave a lecture at one of the big shows on GAITING and it sounded so good "GAITING" was adopted my most of the new judges as a way of explaining something they have no knowledge of, it is just a word use to tie a dog. No classes ever given, no points can be used +or - , No explanation where the head should be up or down, Fast or Slow, No nothing but a word used by a person that has influenced most EVERYONE now, BUT JUST LOOK IN THE RULE BOOK AND SEE WHAT ONE BREED STANDARD HAS TO SAY ABOUT MOVEMENT. In closing get use to "the reason I picked this dog is he GAITED BETTER" and heaven forbid a person who has a disability and can not RUN around the ring and they get beat because their dog did not GAIT and then the A C L U gets involved because a person can't run. HUH ever thought about that. Yea GAITING just get's get under my skin. and may in fact just get me out completely. OR MAYBE GET ME A WHEEL CHAIR LEAD MY DOG TO THE BENCH GET BEAT THEN GET RICH. ............. GAITING................. sucks.

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Posted by Cynthia on 10-16-2012 11:35 PM:

so, I guess I will just tote my dog to the bench because it does not need to walk (ie gait). then when I take it hunting, I will tote the dog to the tree and stack him on the tree like a statue because his movement and gait are not important. I may not have all the years experience in this sport as others, but just because a dog is stacked like a statue on the bench does not make him the best dog. anyone, can make a dog stand still. its when you move them that you can see the movement and angles in the shoulders and if they are put together correctly. the rear hips, if they are throwing a leg out, or if their bones are too long for the leg which causes incorrect joint placements and angles. gaiting is important in the overall structure of the dog. the movement is important. yes it is a bench show, however just as the breeds have changed/improved over the years so has the means of showing them off.

if hunting on flat land with open expanses, a dog will use that locomotion, reach, drive to cover more land quickly and with the least amount of effort. if hunting in the swamps and cutovers, having good joints and springs (good angles) to be able to climb and jump over trees is important.

so, in the never ending battle of chicken & egg, if the exhibitor feels that they want a dog that will be easier to handle and moves nicely, then work on your gaiting. if the judge doesnt give a rat's patooty about gaiting, then what have you lost? you work your dog like you see fit and let the chips fall where they may. just my opinion. my dogs will know how to gait.

Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-17-2012 12:22 AM:

gait walk thanks,i understand cross over a dog that hunts at
a higher speed to long in the rear

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Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-17-2012 01:46 AM:

WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!JUST GOT IN

Man that training a dog to GATE is realy hard but I got it down pat.
OK now we dun got the gait settled. lets move on to the next big word TOP LINE.
WHEW this is getting complicated, LETS see at one time the big thing was
Altering the color of a dog.
Color of a dog, rememner not enough brindle
Post legged dogs
Gating a dog
Top line
NOW something to think about HOW MANY TOP BREEDERS OF COON HOUNDS DO YOU SEE AT A BENCH SHOW LOOKING TO FIND THEIR NEXT DOG TO BREED TO . You know one that can get through the cutover, swamps, climb small mountains and race across flat land to be the first to tree that RINGTAIL ....................... NONE and you never will ...................
This is a great world we live in so keep the BENCH SHOW in U K C and the GAITING in the all mighty A K C .
Have a goodon going to see if we can tree a coon now we dun got that gating thing down pat.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-17-2012 01:53 AM:

i see 2 angles and everything else is straight.i dont know.

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Posted by mike pennington on 10-17-2012 02:21 AM:

Its my opinion that gaiting bothers a lot of show people because they cant hide the faults. Most show people can hide them on the bench.

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 10-17-2012 02:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mike pennington
Its my opinion that gaiting bothers a lot of show people because they cant hide the faults. Most show people can hide them on the bench.

there is only 2 angles you cant change 1 with out the other
how do you hide straight?

__________________
I don't run scared, I run to scare!

Posted by Cynthia on 10-17-2012 02:38 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by mike pennington
Its my opinion that gaiting bothers a lot of show people because they cant hide the faults. Most show people can hide them on the bench.

exactly! all dogs will have faults, but it must bother some judges as well since they are supposed to look at gaiting in addition to the bench work. we might as well stay next to the truck and stack them on benches and let the judge walk by so the dogs wont have to walk.

Posted by Showman on 10-17-2012 03:30 AM:

just thinking

Is good feet and legs still in play because I think a good footed dog can get through the woods better than coon footed dog. And my question is still not been answered what is the percent a judge should base the gait on.

Posted by john Duemmer on 10-17-2012 03:57 AM:

I should never click on these show dog threads, someone always tries to make it about a dogs ability in the woods and in the real world a dogs build has absolutly no bearing on his ability to get a coon treed. One of my first dogs was a little red cur dog that was born with one eye and one front leg and the one front foot that she had was flat as a platter and no dog she ever hunted against outran her on a coon track. Its fine if people enjoy parading their pretty hounds around and showing them off but dont confuse pretty with coon treeing ability cause that kind of beauty is on the inside.

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Posted by Dale Young on 10-17-2012 07:50 AM:

I try to play the game as I need to but every where else I'll take heart & desire to get the job done.
Largest difference I see in gaiting is in trained & untrained.
Why have so many started ground stacking BEFORE putting their dog on the bench? The sole purpuse of the bench is to make it easy for the judge to examine the dog. I see ground stacking as a bleed over from gaiting shows where only small dogs are placed on benches for the judge to examine without getting on hands & knees to do so.

Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-18-2012 05:12 AM:

Walking now that sheds a lot of light

So walking a dog is as good as running. Never thought that way. Then why does everyone run or prance around instead of just walking? walk ie gate..... SO walking = GATING NOW THAT MAKES IT A WHOLE LOT EASIER. SEE WHAT YOU CAN LEARN ON THIS BOARD.

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Posted by smokin-1-mo on 10-18-2012 06:01 AM:

Re: WHEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!JUST GOT IN

quote:
Originally posted by H. L. Meyer

NOW something to think about HOW MANY TOP BREEDERS OF COON HOUNDS DO YOU SEE AT A BENCH SHOW LOOKING TO FIND THEIR NEXT DOG TO BREED TO . You know one that can get through the cutover, swamps, climb small mountains and race across flat land to be the first to tree that RINGTAIL ....................... NONE and you never will ...................
This is a great world we live in so keep the BENCH SHOW in U K C and the GAITING in the all mighty A K C .
Have a goodon going to see if we can tree a coon now we dun got that gating thing down pat.

H.L. THIS IS ONE OF YOUR BEST POST I HAVE SEEN AND I AGREE WITH YOU,MIKE SEETS IS ONE OF FEW SHOW PEOPLE I KNOW THAT HUNT WHAT THEY SHOW......THE GAITING THING IS RIDICULOUS TO WATCH AT THE BIGGER SHOW IF SOME OF THEM PEOPLE NEW WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE RUNNING AROUND THE RING THEY WOULD DIE...LOL....IT IS NOT A FAIR PRACTICE AT ALL IT ELIMATES THE OLDER FOLKS AND THOSE WITH POOR MOBILITY IT IS NOT NEEDED ....LET AKC HAVE IT......FUNNY STUFF

JOHN DUEMMER I AM WITH YOU DONT KNOW WHY I LOOKED AT FIRST READING I THOUGHT THIS ISNT FOR REAL......STILL HARD TO BELIEVE...LOL

Posted by Amy Dean on 10-18-2012 02:12 PM:

Good Question with alot of good answers.
I have been showing dogs for many years now in AKC I have shown/Owned Great Danes (185 pounds) to Chinese Cresteds (8 pounds). You have to go the speed to make that dog look its best. You want that Judge to say WOW.
When I became involved with UKC four years ago when I brought home my first Black and Tan, Conner was a little shorter in body, little shorter on the upper arm. So his movement had to be made a slower. Now my Plott Vito, he is longer in body, nice shoulder length, so his movement is a faster, mover graceful. When you are gaiting your dog have someone watch his/her front some dog "paddle" almost like their legs are trying to cross over each other. In a case of this move slower. You can't hide it the Judge will see it no matter what BUT it will not be as bad. Top lines there are what they are, yes you can hide a bad top line by wearing dark cloths :-) when you have them on a bench. I laugh when I see a dog with a bad top line and they have dark cloths on Sure they might not even think what they are wearing but Cloths can hide alot :-).
If your dog paddles wear a shirt that is a wild color.
lol these are old handler tips from Conformation Showing. BUT we do use them in Bench showing too.
Good Luck We are all here to help. Someone said to video tape yourself. Awesome Idea, I have been a Conformation Instrutor for years now I always have the new handlers do this, You can learn alot from watching our mistake. I had to learn the hard where watching myself at the Westminster lol a few years back lol.
Have fun you learn by making mistakes, that is how we all learned.

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Posted by Cynthia on 10-18-2012 02:46 PM:

HL - I dont understand why you have such a problem with gaiting. You are supposed to evaluate the dogs both on gait and bench work (see below).

From the rulebook pg 50 Judge's reponsibility:

8. Judge must see that all handlers walk or gait dogs.
Dog must be gaited for Judge to determine any
weaknesses in the locomotion of the dog. Dogs must
be evaluated on the bench to determine to what
degree the dog conforms to the breed standard.

Below is EVERY coonhound breed and what the standards say about gait. so if EVERY standard mentions gait, do you not think its important and should be evaluated????

B&T: He is balanced, agile and sound, with the ability to cover ground easily, efficiently and tirelessly in the pursuit of game.

ALH - Legs are long enough to allow the dog to move quickly and with agility in rough terrain. American Leopard Hound gait is smooth and effortless, with good reach of forequarters. Rear quarters have strong driving power, with hocks fully extending. Viewed from any position, legs turn neither in nor out, nor do feet cross or interfere with each other. As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward center line of balance.

BT - A smooth lithe gait is essential. The action of the Bluetick Coonhound is a strong, driving, smooth gait. The over-all appearance in motion should be that of effortless power, endurance, speed, agility, smoothness and grace.

When viewed from the front, the front legs must reach well out in front in straight lines, with pasterns strong and springy as if to pull in the ground. Hackneyed motion is not desired, nor is paddling or weaving.

The rear legs follow the front legs, which give forceful propulsion, thus the Bluetick moves in a straight pattern forward.

When viewed from the side there should be a noticeable drive, with a ground-covering stride.

ENG - Smooth and effortless, showing great capacity for endurance. Head and tail carried well up.

PLT - Quick and agile, with head and tail carried well up.

RED - The well balanced and agile Redbone moves freely and easily at a reasonable speed with head and tail carried well up.

TW - The Treeing Walker moves with good reach and drive, showing good balance. Hackney (high stepping) movement is a fault.

Posted by H. L. Meyer on 10-18-2012 07:52 PM:

Wow Cynthia

I do not understand why U think gaiting has presidence over the overall dog, So you brought the rule book in play let's look at some thing that are listed in print.
B/T page 7
Head Carried well up slightly domedahd broad between the ears, NEVER NARROW.
Ears set medium low, well attached to head and devoid of erectile power, should reach aproximately to the end of nose when drawn out. should hang gracefully , inside part tipping tword muzzle,should not be too pointed at tip, slightly oval, soft and velvet , hanging in a roll when head is raised.
Back short and slightly arched, well muscled and strong. This is one important part of the breed.
And by the way ALL of the following are in BOLD PRINT with explination under each. History, General APPEARANCE, CHARACTERISTICS,HEAD, MUZZLE,TEETH,EYES,EARS,NECK, FORQUARTERS,BODY,BACK,HINDQUARTERS,FEET, TAIL,COAT,COLOR,SIZE AND WEIGHT,ELEMINATING FAULTS, DISQUALIFICATIONS.
GAITING is not mention.
BLUETICK COONHOUND page
HEAD page 12
The head is broad between the ears,with a slightly domed skull.Total length of head from occiput to end of nose is 9 to 10 inches in males and 8 to 9 inches in females. The stop is prominent. the muzzle from the stop to the end of the nose should be well propoetioned in width with the skull, with depth of flews well covering the lower jaw. Depthof foreface should be 3 to 41/2 inches.
Gait is mentioned but I am not going to print it.
NOW let see another breed the ENGLISH
This breed gives a judge specific instructions
PAGE 17 WOW in BOLD PRINT
SERIOUS FAULT
Lacking in adequate angulation: i.e post legged
Now in closing Cynthia don't think for one minute I do not understand dog structure the instructors who gave these lectures i attended were from all over the WORLD. I am old but not stupid. And one last thing as you mentioned on page 50 #8 In my opinion no where does it say one dog Gaits better than another I read it to say as in print "to determine any weakness in locomotion of of the dog. So if all dogs do not display any weakness then they are all as one. Maybe weakness needs to be defined to some people
With just the few standards I have poster if a judge was worth their salt they could pick the better dog rather than stating THIS DOG GAITED BETTER.
What a pitiful excuse NOPE NOT A FAN AND NEVER WILL BE A FAN OF GAITING THE WAY IT IS BEING USED AT THIS TIME. And I am not afraid or ashame of the way I feel. If we wanted to participate in a all breed show where dogs are judges mainly on gait I would be there.
Just one example have you EVER watched a judge do any measuring of a BLUETICKS head to determine the better dog, Ever heard a judge say this B/T muzzle is so small it could drink water from a crawdad hole and never get its whiskers dirty, and this dog does not have enough angulation. NOPE AND NEVER WILL IT MIGHT HURT SOMEONES FEELING, BUT HE GATES BETTER MAKES IT EASIER.The name is H L MEYER and proud of it and YES U gona get to judge my dog also I ain't scared.

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Posted by MikeR on 10-18-2012 07:54 PM:

With the exception of the larger Breed days and event shows I've only seen 1-2 dogs that local shows that handlers somewhat gaited.

The majority of handlers at local events are hunters who show their dogs with hunting collars on and using hunting leads.

While I firmly believe its very important for a hound to be structurally correct to perform best at hunting I think some judges and show people have gone overboard with several aspects of showing including gaiting.

Coonhounds are HUNTING dogs. If you want to flitter around a show ring show in AKC.

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Posted by Amy Dean on 10-18-2012 08:45 PM:

H L my Vito was the number one Plott last year UKC Bench
Number 3 AKC All Breed Plott Hound I hunt him matter of fact we are going out tonight, He is in Water Races, I Dock Dive Him
As well and he is one heck of a nice looking dog!!!
All my "Pretty Dogs" Hunt they might tree lol something else at times but they go out get nicked up dirty sprayed by skunks too
I love showing and hunting Ohhh by the way I hunt Bear and yes I will be taking my one Plott I got for hunting bear out :0)

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C-Cruz Kennel

Posted by Cynthia on 10-18-2012 09:26 PM:

HL, you brought up the rulebook " BUT JUST LOOK IN THE RULE BOOK AND SEE WHAT ONE BREED STANDARD HAS TO SAY ABOUT MOVEMENT. " your words. I was just putting the info about movement out where all could see and compare. the original question was about gaiting and the correct speed. which by the way, depends on the dog (in ideal situation). I have seen ppl use their hands to measure a BT's head. I assumed they knew how long there hand was. I have seen "coke bottled" nose dogs, and straight as an arrow rear ends. and no I am not putting gait above overall dog. however, there are times that you have to use something (some ppl use color) as the tie breaker. if all the dogs are equal on the bench, then you use something on the ground with their movement or vice versa. but the point is you cannot have one without the other. if you could then there would (or should) have never been anything put into the standards discussing gait and/or movement.

there are no perfect dogs, I know this. its a total package or as close as you can get with what shows up that day. this one should have a better head, that one a better rear, more angle. do they have the reach/drive to do their job (yes they need some brains too and there are nice dogs w/o brains)? all of that has to be taken into account. and at the end of the day, whether you have pissed some handler off or not with your choice, you have to use all the aspects of the dog from head set, shoulder set, angle, top line, gait, etc to choose what YOU think is the best dog. but to come out and say that gaiting is not important (I think) is trashing the standards and the breed creators who thought it was important enough to write it down.

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