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Rules Question for JiM

JiM,

I was not at this hunt, so I don't know the real details as they transpired, but here is the scenario.

Two dog cast with a non-hunting judge. They cast the dogs and several minutes go by. Dog A is declared struck, but the judge does not hear any dog opening. He inqires of the handler where he heard the dog, and tell him that he is minused.

Dog opens a short time later, about a half mile from where the handler says he heard the dog when he struck him. Judge has no trouble hearing the dog when he is opening.

Handler A questions the call, and the MOH removes the minus from the scorecard. Resoning...there is no where in the UKC rules that state a dog must be barking when it is stuck....

Can you find anywhere that states a dog must bark, open, or demonstrate in any fashion that it is running a track before it is struck....I can't find it anywhere....

Boy will that open up a can o' worms.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Rule number 1.....the very first one. That one paragraph is 21 lines long but it is all rule#1. "Dog must open before struck or treed". That should do it.

Well...Duh....

I looked everywhere but rule #1.

It seemed pretty obvious to me....but hey.....you know how some of those wannabe lawyers can argue a position in front of a MOH that has not been in the woods in 20 years!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Sorry to jump in on your post but the way I read the advisor,the judge is not to accept a call,strike or tree on a dog that is not barking.Some like to put the call on paper and then minus but I think that is wrong.You just not accept it.

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Roy Brown

I was going to say the same thing as nitehawk.

I was in a cast, and this dog barked, we will say three times, I said I need a call on that dog. a half min later, the guy says strike my dog. when no dog was barking. Now do I take the strike, or do I make him wait till the next time it barks?

Joe, nobody reads rule #1 because it starts out with stuff like "One night only. No entries accepted after listed deadline.Dogs divideded into least number of casts........" You yawn and move on to the meaty stuff like rule #4 "Points will be minus"......

quote:

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Originally posted by Philip
I was going to say the same thing as nitehawk.

I was in a cast, and this dog barked, we will say three times, I said I need a call on that dog. a half min later, the guy says strike my dog. when no dog was barking. Now do I take the strike, or do I make him wait till the next time it barks?

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by Philip
I was going to say the same thing as nitehawk.

I was in a cast, and this dog barked, we will say three times, I said I need a call on that dog. a half min later, the guy says strike my dog. when no dog was barking. Now do I take the strike, or do I make him wait till the next time it barks?

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__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

quote:

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Originally posted by jackbob42
Seems to me , in an " on or before the 3rd bark " discussion , the dog is " on " the 3rd bark until he barks the 4th time. And , therefore , can be struck.

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Oak Ridge are you feeling OK? lol

__________________
"The Proof is in the Pudding"

"Coon Eyes Matter"
Boss Lights
San Mateo, Fl

He's fine. Everybody loves a good can of worms.

Re: Rules Question for JiM

quote:

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Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Boy will that open up a can o' worms.

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Oak Ridge

Boy, Rule #1 will sure make a guy feel stupid. I was judging this cast. Here is the scenario:

The cast was down to two dogs. We turn loose in a grassy field with strips of woodline on both sides and facing a big section. After, a few minutes no dog has opened. There is about ten minutes left in the cast and the guy who is losing (go figure) points left handed strikes his dog and no dog has barked. I minus him beacuse, it is very obvious no dog has opened. About thirty seconds later his dog and the other dog open a 1/4 right handed. He admits he struck wrong but, questions me minusing him because, he feels I should have started the eight. He takes first and first on the coon and beats the other fellow. The 100- would have caused him to lose the cast. We get back to the club and the master of hounds overturns the minus. A couple other master of hounds were sitting around and they agreed. If indeed there were no rule stating a dog had to open it would be the biggest loophole in the rules there is. I looked all over the scorecard and the advisor and couldnt find it.

Thanks for pointing it out.

I have a question about minusing the dog. I was under the impression that in a case like that, that the judge was not to take the call at all. Is this right, or does the dog get minused?

quote:

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Originally posted by gfults
I have a question about minusing the dog. I was under the impression that in a case like that, that the judge was not to take the call at all. Is this right, or does the dog get minused?

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Well I thought Todd or Allen or someone on here awhile back said something about a judge not taking a call where a dog has been struck or treed and a dog has not or couldnt be heard. In other words nobody has heard a dog at all and someone strikes .

[QUOTE]Originally posted by larrypoe
[B]You just cant take the call. No minuse, no 8, just cant take it.


So if the next time a judge tries to minus me for striking the wrong dog, I just have to say "no, no, I wasn't striking THAT dog I was striking MINE that DIDN"T bark, so you just can't take the call". LOL

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***GRNTCH LATE NITE BIG BUBBA 6/15/97 - 12/24/09***

Dont get me wrong. Im not saying thats the way it should be. Im saying I remember it being told to me that way. If Im judging that situation, the dog would be minused. Its kinda like scratching a dog in a Nt.Ch. or Gr.Nt. cast for treeing possum in timeout. Its stupid but its the rules.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nathan Lattimer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by larrypoe
[B]You just cant take the call. No minuse, no 8, just cant take it.


So if the next time a judge tries to minus me for striking the wrong dog, I just have to say "no, no, I wasn't striking THAT dog I was striking MINE that DIDN"T bark, so you just can't take the call". LOL

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

All this makes great disscusion but in the real world, you are gonna see a judge minus every handler that calls the wrong dog and scratch them the second time they do it. And those striking dogs that no one else can hear will get the 8 on them right then. And the 8 will run till the judge or another cast member hears the dog. And 9 out 0f 10 MOH will back that.

minus

Bad call is a bad call. You got to take a hit if I'm judging. Say later in the cast a man gets in a hurry and trees his dog in a corn field. Does the judge just say, "son that dog is in the middle of a corn field running, I can't put that call on the paper."

__________________
989-529-8563

quote:

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Originally posted by JiM
All this makes great disscusion but in the real world, you are gonna see a judge minus every handler that calls the wrong dog and scratch them the second time they do it. And those striking dogs that no one else can hear will get the 8 on them right then. And the 8 will run till the judge or another cast member hears the dog. And 9 out 0f 10 MOH will back that.

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Anyone can pass the MOH test. It is an open book test and if that is still too hard, you can just get someone else to take it for you. The apprenticeship??? That is just showing up at 3 hunts. So the club looks around and sees the guy that comes to every hunt, would much rather talk than walk and bingo!!!! You got a new MOH.

I made the post above last Friday and I now realize it must have offended some that are normally purty hard to offend. I'd like to apolgize to all the good, hardworking MOH's out there that do a job few of us would want. The really good ones are few enough to be of great value to our game. JiM

re

yah but we need more that know the rules

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