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Making champion

So I was just sitting here wondering about the requirments for making HBCH and PCH. Does everyone think that there needs to be a change in these requirements. I mean a hound could actually make HBCH by facing any where's from 3- however many dogs. PCH could face as little as 10 hounds. Does that sound like a Champion?
What is everybodys thoughts on this. I, myself am thinking 1st place and a 100 points with only 50 points max at any one club. Sort of like ARHA. Let's hear it guys blast away at me!!!

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

Mike, in Performance Pack once you have your first place and 100pts. You have to certify to the gun before you recevive your champion degree. I think this should be done in HB. In ARHA you have to have two first place wins and 100 pts, plus certify to the gun for champion.

Too many clubs having too many hunts . Hunts that never produce decent numbers. That is the problem that needs to be addressed.

Well, lets see??? if we could change it how much harder do we want to make it? To me a Champion hunting beagle title should be elite. Lets certifiy on gun shyness, and off game. If they add certification trials where the dog has to jump and circle its own rabbit and be fired over, then title it a champion after it earns it first place and 100 points. Something like pp. does. Once a champion, to earn GRHBCH, Keep it as is 5 wins. JMO.... Mike where the weekly questions? I miss those...

These are all great things so far.
Albert you are correct to many clubs in comparison to the number of dogs.
But the 100 points is nothing really what is it 45 points for a 1st place. What if there are only 5 hounds. Maybe it should be 1 point for every hound.
I was asked to discontinue The Question of the Week by Jed. It seem to hurt some peoples feelings and run alot of new people off. He asked me to send in all the questions I had allready but I have failed to do so to this date. I keep meaning to do it but whenever I think about it I am doing something else.

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

in my opinion i think it should b like akc u must have 3 first places and a hundred points and you get 1 point for each dog u defeat so if there was 30 dogs entered u would recieve 29 points that day and i think keep it 5 wins to make grand and u must get a win at 5 different clubs just my opinion lol!!!!!

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I like the idea of how many dogs you defeat is how many points you get. You guys have two years to figure out how to possibly make it better and then submit to UKC for the rules committee to decide. I also like the idea of 2 or 3 first place wins also. Mike, that point was brought up this weekend about putting a max point value at one club also. Another good point.

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Joe Brown
UKC Field Representative

I am not saying this in a bad way so dont take it that way. In my opinion UKC will not do very much changing on what it takes to make a dog a champion, they are in the business of registering dogs, the faster you make your dog a champion the faster you will move on to another dog to try to do the same, hince more registrations. I dont know if this is right or wrong but UKC is a business and that is a good business decision. It takes alot of money to support the staff they have and I commend them for doing so! They are not just supporting the people who work there but the families of those people.

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Don

So what do you think if a proposal was brought forth to the rules committee that we, the beaglers the ones who provide some of that money, wanted to raise the standards of what it takes to make champion. That they would influence the outcome? I don't think that they would do that. If, as a whole, felt that it would better the program, I am sure they would be in agreement with what we wanted.
You read about it on here every week about the Champions and Grands that can not bring a rabbit full circle and are not deserving of the title they hold. Why not have an elite way of making Champion for an elite Hound?

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Iraq Vet, 03-05, 05-07, 09-10

Phone number 270-820-5560

I kind of agree with you Don Wells But, I agree it should be a little harder to make your hound a champion. A big change i would like to see is beagles making it to grand champion. I think a beagle should WIN 5 hunts. I do not agree HBCH should get a win towards it's grand at a world qualifier. My opinion is getting a CAST win at a world qualifier is just that. You are there to get your beagle qualifed. Every one knows it's harder to get a win towards grand But, when you get that win you can be very proud of your hound and your self. Just think UKC can make alot more money and it should produce better grands and owners can honestly say my beagle won all 5 hunts. Think about it. Now for as PP format i think it's good. I think the judging should be look at. I do not think every one is on the same page.

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I am pretty sure a few years ago in the first Performance Pack rules committee it was brought up for a dog to make Champion they needed to have 2 wins and 100 total points. This proposal failed. There was one change made in this last rules committee that was for the better and made it a little more difficult to become a champion, that is where you must have a cast win to be awarded championship points at the trial.

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big matt t. -----in my opinion i think it should b like akc u must have 3 first places and a hundred points and you get 1 point for each dog u defeat so if there was 30 dogs entered u would recieve 29 points that day and i think keep it 5 wins to make grand and u must get a win at 5 different clubs just my opinion lol!!!!!
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I agree with Matt on this. HBCH are made too easy. People are finishing dogs while they are still puppies. The titles would mean a lot more to the owner of the dog and I think that the people that run in other registries would be more apt to run UKC Trials if the titles were harder to attain.

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ive said this a 1000 times on here. It would be cool if UKC GRHBCH title was the hardest to get thus the most prestigious to get in all of beagles!!!! The problem is aint gona happen, they want a registry factory , guys im not sure if u all look at it like this but UKC is a buisness and we are customers buying a product, would u want ur costumers buyin less of a product if u had a business???? NO

Imagine if u had to have 3 first at 3 different clubs amd 1 point per dog and u need 100 pts for example and if HBCH class had a winners pack (no honey holes matter now) ud have to beat the other dogs period, keep it at 5 wins ! It would be a much more celebrated title. The problem is it would screw up alot of records and UKC feels like they would loose money.

If u have a real talented young dog it is not hard to grand em b4 2 if ya want, we have started the last cpl years holding dogs bacck just to enjoy em longer, this shouldnt be that way.

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Mitch Gould


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why are you guys focusing so much on the title hunting beagle champion and not so much on the grand hunting beagle champion ? I think it's pretty tough as it is to make a grand. 5 wins in the champions cast...i dunno about everywhere else but here in ohio we have a stacked champion group of dogs right now. if it's too easy for you down there bring them up here and grand them.....just my feelings if you're breeding dogs for titles and not what they are and are not happy with the over all class of champion dogs out there then start breeding to grands you may find a better dog. I just don't see why so much emphasis is being put on a champion and not as much on the grands. Yeah i know there is alot of holes in my arguement as far as well better champions will make better grands etc..but is'nt it really on you and what you like ? what does it really matter ? This has been brought up God only knows how many times...mike i've seen you post on this topic before when it was brought up by others LOL. I don't get it personally. I just finished a dog out to champion and i'm not planning on stopping there....I think it will be a real accomplishment to finish him to grand considering some of the dogs he will be running against around here!!! champion just puts a seperation between registered dogs and completely finished dogs which in my opinion which are the grand hunting beagle champions. a.k.c only has one degree of champion u.k.c has two degrees of champions so it isnt exactly the same thing you are comparing here its more like oranges to apples when comparing hunting beagle champions in u.k.c to an a.k.c champion. If you like a.k.c then run it. Finish a dog there. If it ain't broke dont break it. i.m.o.p. lets put more emphasis and prestige on a grand, and get off the idea that a hunting beagle champion is a finished dog b/c it is'nt. in means of a finished trialing dog.

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Shawn, you've got some great points, as well as some of the other guys. Yea it may make it easier for some, but the system is made as a whole. Ukc cant chage, how some hunts may have fewer dogs than others, resulting in "what some call an easy win.". I've judged more than one final four, where it went down to a coin toss after two or three hours of running with no rabbits jumped. Its just the way it is sometimes. Yea maybe they could go to 2 firsts, that would probably prevent some of the easy ones. I think making a max point or having to win at different clubs is too difficult and way too much paper work to do. Like you said earlier, if people would stay on course to breed for performance and what they like, and not worry about the titles it would help too. Also comparing to AKC, they dont have grands, just FC, so they all run together. Also correct me if I'm wrong, aren't clubs that are AKC, limited to the amount of hunts that they have, I mean a smaller number than UKC. I think Albert touched on the subject of us having too many hunts, Maybe. dont know. I just believe that some numbers are down due to economy in such. We've had pretty much the same amount of hunts in Ohio for the last several years. I know this topic keeps coming. If your worried about if a certain dog is not worthy of being ch. then do some research before breeding to it, or if this dog is in your ch. cast. you should have nothing to worry about. JMO. Jeremy Geiger

I think the points are just too high for placements allowing dogs to champion out too quickly. The ability to champion out a dog with just three placements does not seem hard enough. If we just changed the points to 20 win,15 second,10 third and 5 for fourth it would help. This would be easy to convert to without much hassel and would also make a hound prove some consistancy to make champion. People would not be able to pick and choose hunts so much if dogs did not champion out so easy resulting in each hunt drawing more dogs.

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what do you think???

lots of good idea's... I know of 2 GRHBCH that have 4 WQE cast wins and 1 hunt win to graduate from reg. to HBCH. Maby if the WQE did not count as a 1st place win to make a reg. dog a HBCH it could change the layout enough.
SHOW DOGS! I wish there were two classes of show. Hunting show dogs and show dogs. I know the 50 point rule is in effect for that reason but I personally dont feed dogs that dont run. I know people who would show there beagle just for fun like coon hunters but they wont because of the hunting for diffrent reasons. On the other hand some of us show a dog or two that we hunt and they would not get there fair shake at a dog that has never been in the brush or got there 50 points 2 years ago and live in the house. I am not bashing anyone I just think there would be more showing take place at hunts. For the little kids mostly...

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why not just run akc or arha if you like their rules ? I know akc uses judges like pp. Is arha the same way. I know in akc that guys will follow judges that like and place their hounds.I like that you have a little say in hb with a hunting judge.

HELLO

I THANK THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS GUYS JUDGING THERE OWN DOGS TO MUCH I HAVE A DOG THAT NEEDS 1 MORE WIN TO BE GRAND AND NEVER CARRIED A SCORECARD HE CAN CIRCLE HIS OWN RABBIT AND SHOOT AS CLOSE AS YOU LIKE AND WHEN HE OPENS ITS A RABBIT BOYS AND GIRLS HAVE A NICE DAY

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olinger, Its all about tryin to improve the system, thats all. And im sorry I dont think the Grand title mean nearly as much as it used to with so many hunts, and no i dont need to come up there , look at our track record we have never just camped out here in wv bud, but thats not the point. The way it is is good for sure my favorite format by far, all we are sayin is if u had to have 3 firsts u might have to really work at it longer and therefore making it more prestigous to grand the dog. This is all hypothetical of course because its not goin to happen, NO WAY.

If u have good hounds and breed good hounds , I look at it as a challenge. Nothin to be afraid of.

I just thought it would be cool to say a UKC GRHBCH is the toughest most prestigous title in beagles.

i like it wen pppl say "well if u wanna run another format go do that" blah blah not sure why someone would get so defensive about making it tougher to finish a dog unless they worried bout somthin. The fact is this is just ppl spitballin an idea really to just better the best program in hunting beagles .....UKC HH format!!

Nobody said the program stinks or anything even close, we should always be lookin at ways to improve, When UKC beagles started I remember being at coonhunts and ppl sayin " UKC is tryin to start a beagles program" "it wont work" im glad those fine houndsman reached out and thought outside the box and didnt just say oh well I guess we can just run arha, a little inovation had mad a BIG difference

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Mitch Gould


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Will said Mitch, It is most evident UKC needs to do some thing. I truly think we always need to look out side the box and have a open mind about issues and making the hunting beagle format better. Most of all we need to have faith in the UKC oganization to here what ideas people have. Yes UKC they make all changes but I'm sure UKC they here all of us. You no, Have faith UKC just mite support what we are talking about. I still think a HBCH going for it's grand should earn all 5 wins. Do not give it a win just because it wins a cast in a world qualifier. My HBCH has 3 wins 2 she got winning hunts and 1 was a cast win at a world qualifier. It just kills me knowing she got that win like that and if i could give it back i would. The world hunt is a big one and i need to get my beagle there so i will bite nails knowing it will give her 1 more win towards grand. This needs to be changed because i need to feel she won them. Every one has some good ideas and i think every one wants a better hunting beagle If we all work together changes mite happen. UKC can you here us?

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Change

I am not opposed to changes either. I do believe like Thornie that the Hunting Beagle should have to prove that it can search out, jump, run and circle it's own rabbit back to the gun via a certification similar to the Performance Pack hounds. The reasons being these are HUNTING Beagle Programs which means we want to better our Hunting Beagle Breed. I like both formats of Hunting Beagles however I just seem to lean more to the Performance Pack style of dogs for a gun hunting type scenario for me.

All of you have some good ideas, are any of them perfect (No); but they may help improve our sport of UKC Beagling for the future. Put in a Proposal and see if it's adopted as a change. That is the only way we will know is if we try something.

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Happy Beagling and God Bless from,
Dusty Road Beagles

devil's advocate

quote:

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Originally posted by Kevin Watkins
I agree with you 100% ... But my question to UKC is when do we stop padding pockets and begin to start bettering the breed. In my Opinion if the rule was changed to the way you all are proposing half the dogs that have made HBCH would not have made it, hence better dogs will,which in return will better the breed. I'm all for the change......

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quote:

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SHOW DOGS! I wish there were two classes of show. Hunting show dogs and show dogs. I know the 50 point rule is in effect for that reason but I personally dont feed dogs that dont run.

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From Field to Show and Show to Field the way it should be

I guess I would'nt be opposed to making a bit more difficult..suggestions like champion wins for a cast win in a wqe or maybe less points per place etc...are fair enough and good suggestions, but my thing is I don't see it improving the quality of hounds you find in each class..people are going to run what they are going to run, all you are doing is prolonging the process of achieving the titles, and taking a part of the "luck" value to it. People will always being playing the luck card though lol you find people who get 2 lucky wins instead of just one it's inevitable. ultimatlely it's on you to better the breed, and just becuase you feel you are bettering it does not mean that you are in someone else's opinion anyhow...everyone has opinions. We are paying to play a game here guys. You don't change the rules to monopoly when you don't agree with something do ya (well some may lol)? As far as the comment "if you like the way a.k.c is set up go run in that"...that makes perfect sense to me. If you like one game better then another play that one lol. That is what I would do ? honestly. It sounds like a reasonable suggestion to me, not a rhetorical one.

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