UKC Forums - What made the big change ?

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-- What made the big change ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928529294)

Posted by yadkintar on 04-23-2020 03:24 AM:

What made the big change ?

I had a buddy send me a 1976 ukc score card. Two things stood out 3 minutes every dump it says from the pickup lol that your dog could bark before you had to strike him and 100 strike and 100 tree. And said 3 hrs up to 4 hrs.

I started in the hunts in 1979 and it was bark the first 3 minutes then on or before the 3 rd bark and there was a babbling clause. 3 hr hunt.

Best I remember lol.

Posted by Ron Jackson on 04-23-2020 01:02 PM:

Boy oh Boy Tar, I remember the 3 hour hunts. don't remember them all that well anymore though. been a long time ago. I was a youngster back then compared to now.

Posted by novicane65 on 04-23-2020 01:06 PM:

Can't a club still hold a 3 hour hunt if they'd like to? I thought I remembered Allen saying that a year or so ago.

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Posted by yadkintar on 04-23-2020 01:30 PM:

I like the one hour lol. Maybe even 30 minutes. You ought to see the whole card you talk about different from now as night and day.

Tar

Posted by Allen / UKC on 04-23-2020 02:41 PM:

I still think that old "after the first three minutes of the hunt, dog must be struck in on or before the third bark" rule was the better rule. A babbling dog was much easier to bust and would get busted.

If that rule was put back in place, we'd probably find a lot of dogs being eliminated from entering the hunts. Back then guys worked on a babbling dog. If they couldn't fix the problem, that "faulty" dog wouldn't make the nite hunt grade.

Posted by Lone Pine JB on 04-23-2020 04:13 PM:

I'm all for eliminating babblers, I hate them. But I've hunted with lots of honest strike dogs that will bark a few times when being lined up and cut loose with 3 others. Maybe more like 5 barks? But Allen may not be able to count that high.

__________________
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Posted by novicane65 on 04-23-2020 04:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
I still think that old "after the first three minutes of the hunt, dog must be struck in on or before the third bark" rule was the better rule. A babbling dog was much easier to bust and would get busted.

If that rule was put back in place, we'd probably find a lot of dogs being eliminated from entering the hunts. Back then guys worked on a babbling dog. If they couldn't fix the problem, that "faulty" dog wouldn't make the nite hunt grade.

But here's the thing....... Those babblers back then didn't normally bark nonstop for the whole hunt time (according to a bunch). The ones I've seen do it the few times I have seen were nonstop barking. They'd bark here then move around bark there move around....... From what I've been told by more than a handful of guys it started back in the 80's and has snowballed into what it is today.

I personally can't stand that type but they have the advantage if they park under coons consistently.

No rules will change that very much because the judges don't enforce it. There's a bunch of weak judges around, not just in UKC either. I know there's some honest dogs that have good noses and can open on tracks others can't smell. But if a dog continuously gets 100 on strike every cast its a babbler or runs junk and falls off on coons. I'd prefer the 2nd type vs an air barker.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 04-23-2020 05:02 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Lone Pine JB
I'm all for eliminating babblers, I hate them. But I've hunted with lots of honest strike dogs that will bark a few times when being lined up and cut loose with 3 others. Maybe more like 5 barks? But Allen may not be able to count that high.

True. But back in the day, that dog that would loose bark more than twice, after the first cut of the night, was in trouble. So, you're right, I never had to learn to count higher than 3.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-23-2020 10:38 PM:

Tarbaby, you know exactly what made the big change. It was the hunters complaining about the rules or having to hunt for 3 hours.

Posted by yadkintar on 04-24-2020 02:17 AM:

I was young brother I could do 3 hrs walking backwards. This card is interesting to me but I love history. Ask me some questions and I will give you the rule. Might be of an evening after work.

Tar

Posted by honalieh on 04-24-2020 08:35 AM:

Maybe it depends on the area.

I've seen a lot more silent or tight-mouthed dogs than babbling dogs.

When UKC went to the 125 tree point rule for 1st tree, that kind of neutralized babbling dogs. 3rd strike-1st tree still beat them.

The biggest problem now is that 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th tree dogs can get the same points as a 1st tree dog (by splitting). Award tree points based on the order in which they tree (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th), and you again neutralize a babbler (unless they are also legitimate 1st tree dogs---meaning 1st to get treed).

If we awarded tree points based on the order in which dogs treed, a 3rd strike, 1st tree dog wins every time (tiebreaker). If we jumped 1st tree to 150, even a 4th strike, 1st tree dog wins every time (tiebreaker).

The strike points only become an issue when we give 1st tree points to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs (when they split).

The problem is the handlers of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs are getting 1st tree dog points, and think they are deserving. Then strike points become an issue, because aside from having a slow tree dog, they also have a slow strike dog. So, open dogs are now called babblers.

Why have special rules to benefit dogs that are slower to get treed???

Posted by yadkintar on 04-24-2020 11:46 AM:

I won a lot of hunts with a last strike first tree dog ( because that’s all the strike that was left rather quickly off the snap ) A lot of babblers are not productive doing it they are like ................. where did the rabbit go George? Uh huh he might be over here nope maybe over there. Oh that dogs got a coon treed I will just go help him. I will hug eeem and squeeze eeeeem and call eeeem my friend uh huh.

Tar

Posted by Sgraves on 04-24-2020 05:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
I won a lot of hunts with a last strike first tree dog ( because that’s all the strike that was left rather quickly off the snap ) A lot of babblers are not productive doing it they are like ................. where did the rabbit go George? Uh huh he might be over here nope maybe over there. Oh that dogs got a coon treed I will just go help him. I will hug eeem and squeeze eeeeem and call eeeem my friend uh huh.

Tar

I haven’t been in the nite hunts as long as you . I learned my lessons the hard way. I was introduced to these babbling fools on the very first cast I was in. Always liked a dog that gave good mouth on track. As long as it was honest. But then again I ended up with a dog that was tight on the ground. When he did open up , get ready because he was fixing to look up. My first lesson was the hard way .The handlers would learn my dogs locate an tree theirs as soon as he done it . They would normally be toting first strick. My dog caught on too. I had to really listen to his locate , he would half locate an get down an move on. Leave ole loose mouth hanging. Fun times for sure.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 04-24-2020 06:25 PM:

Re: Maybe it depends on the area.

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh

The biggest problem now is that 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th tree dogs can get the same points as a 1st tree dog (by splitting). Award tree points based on the order in which they tree (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th), and you again neutralize a babbler (unless they are also legitimate 1st tree dogs---meaning 1st to get treed).

If we awarded tree points based on the order in which dogs treed, a 3rd strike, 1st tree dog wins every time (tiebreaker). If we jumped 1st tree to 150, even a 4th strike, 1st tree dog wins every time (tiebreaker).

The strike points only become an issue when we give 1st tree points to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs (when they split).

The problem is the handlers of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs are getting 1st tree dog points, and think they are deserving. Then strike points become an issue, because aside from having a slow tree dog, they also have a slow strike dog. So, open dogs are now called babblers.

Why have special rules to benefit dogs that are slower to get treed???

I know you've laid out this theory before. I agreed then and still do. If they would give 1st tree points to the dog that treed the first coon and not to every dog that treed a coon alone it would be an absolute game changer. It no longer matters how good a track dog is or how fast they tree a coon...as long as when they finally do tree one they are alone.

__________________
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Posted by novicane65 on 04-24-2020 09:53 PM:

Re: Maybe it depends on the area.

quote:
Originally posted by honalieh
I've seen a lot more silent or tight-mouthed dogs than babbling dogs.

When UKC went to the 125 tree point rule for 1st tree, that kind of neutralized babbling dogs. 3rd strike-1st tree still beat them.

The biggest problem now is that 2nd, 3rd, and even 4th tree dogs can get the same points as a 1st tree dog (by splitting). Award tree points based on the order in which they tree (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th), and you again neutralize a babbler (unless they are also legitimate 1st tree dogs---meaning 1st to get treed).

If we awarded tree points based on the order in which dogs treed, a 3rd strike, 1st tree dog wins every time (tiebreaker). If we jumped 1st tree to 150, even a 4th strike, 1st tree dog wins every time (tiebreaker).

The strike points only become an issue when we give 1st tree points to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs (when they split).

The problem is the handlers of 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tree dogs are getting 1st tree dog points, and think they are deserving. Then strike points become an issue, because aside from having a slow tree dog, they also have a slow strike dog. So, open dogs are now called babblers.

Why have special rules to benefit dogs that are slower to get treed???

Going by this theory you'd only have to walk to the first tree with a coon. No point in walking to the others. And I imagine you have that 1st tree dog in any company. So tell us about your high end strike n tree dog. And why haven't you won the world hunt with it? Why do you want to punish a dog for freeing its own coon? And maybe I don't understand how the 50/125 or 50/100 dog wins, help understand. If you've got a 100/125 or 75/125 type dog it'll win over 50/125. I've won with all different strike points and I'm sure others have too. But the silent dogs or last strike dogs are at a disadvantage to all the other dogs.

Posted by Sgraves on 04-24-2020 10:43 PM:

Re: Re: Maybe it depends on the area.

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
I know you've laid out this theory before. I agreed then and still do. If they would give 1st tree points to the dog that treed the first coon and not to every dog that treed a coon alone it would be an absolute game changer. It no longer matters how good a track dog is or how fast they tree a coon...as long as when they finally do tree one they are alone.

So its fine in everyone’s eyes to give a dog that is barking at nothing a 100 strick. It’s not fine to give a dog a 100 if it splits with it’s own coon. If that’s the case an honest dog might as well stay at the house. It’s getting screwed on strick an tree. That’s something you would hear Nancy Pelosi say.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 04-24-2020 11:01 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Maybe it depends on the area.

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
So its fine in everyone’s eyes to give a dog that is barking at nothing a 100 strick. .

Nope babblers don't last around here. Neither do dogs that have to be alone because they're too slow or ignorant to compete in a cast.
I don't think anybody was proposing a rule change...relax.

I didn't know Nancy coon hunted. That's cool.

__________________
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Posted by Dave Richards on 04-24-2020 11:04 PM:

Eric DePue

Some of these posts are absolutely hilarious, why anyone would think a dog treeing first on a separate track was better than a dog that tree later on a different coon is beyond reason. A better way would be to award strike points based on dogs treeing different coons, just like we do now with awarding different tree points for different trees. Our point system for strike and tree was based on the pack dog concept and worked just fine when dogs packed up. Now with dogs splitting in different direction, often striking and treeing different coons, the strike points ARE the problem. When dogs tree separate the tree points are adjusted accordingly, WHY can't the strike point be adjusted when it was determined the dog indeed was on a separate track, evidenced by the coon seen in the dogs tree. It does not take rocket science to figure this out, and would equalize the strike advantage. One simply fix for a problem that continues to be discussed over and over. It would negate the babbles advantage, it would negate the silient dogs disadvantage, and in FACT would be no different than awarding separate tree points for separate trees. Strike points SHOULD be treated no different for separate tracks. Dave

__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Posted by Sgraves on 04-24-2020 11:37 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe it depends on the area.

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Nope babblers don't last around here. Neither do dogs that have to be alone because they're too slow or ignorant to compete in a cast.
I don't think anybody was proposing a rule change...relax.

I didn't know Nancy coon hunted. That's cool.

Some of stuff I read on hear leaves me wondering if Nancy doesn’t coon hunt. There is to many ways for a crooked handler to win a cast to take points away from a honest dog. If a dog trees it’s own coon it deserves a 100 on the tree. I understand what your saying. An there is good logic to what your saying. Until these dogs are judged without the handler adding his 2 cents leave it be to where a honest dog stands a chance. We can talk about babbling all we want. The guys with money are behind them dogs, has handlers pushing them dogs. It will take its course. Until then , well , I guess get on here an complain about it

Posted by novicane65 on 04-25-2020 12:41 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe it depends on the area.

quote:
Originally posted by Sgraves
Some of stuff I read on hear leaves me wondering if Nancy doesn’t coon hunt. There is to many ways for a crooked handler to win a cast to take points away from a honest dog. If a dog trees it’s own coon it deserves a 100 on the tree. I understand what your saying. An there is good logic to what your saying. Until these dogs are judged without the handler adding his 2 cents leave it be to where a honest dog stands a chance. We can talk about babbling all we want. The guys with money are behind them dogs, has handlers pushing them dogs. It will take its course. Until then , well , I guess get on here an complain about it

I'm not complaining, just stating some clouded thoughts. I don't blame the dogs or the handler/owner of the babbler. My dog should tree another coon than them, plain and simple. If that dog trees 2 coons then mine should tree 3.

Posted by Sgraves on 04-25-2020 01:15 AM:

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Maybe it depends on the area.

quote:
Originally posted by novicane65
I'm not complaining, just stating some clouded thoughts. I don't blame the dogs or the handler/owner of the babbler. My dog should tree another coon than them, plain and simple. If that dog trees 2 coons then mine should tree 3.

I guess your right. We do live in a falling world. It’s hard enough night end , night out to prepare a dog for the good competition, must less a cheating one.

Posted by Bayin'Blues on 04-26-2020 10:39 AM:

Re: Eric DePue

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Some of these posts are absolutely hilarious, why anyone would think a dog treeing first on a separate track was better than a dog that tree later on a different coon is beyond reason. A better way would be to award strike points based on dogs treeing different coons, just like we do now with awarding different tree points for different trees. Our point system for strike and tree was based on the pack dog concept and worked just fine when dogs packed up. Now with dogs splitting in different direction, often striking and treeing different coons, the strike points ARE the problem. When dogs tree separate the tree points are adjusted accordingly, WHY can't the strike point be adjusted when it was determined the dog indeed was on a separate track, evidenced by the coon seen in the dogs tree. It does not take rocket science to figure this out, and would equalize the strike advantage. One simply fix for a problem that continues to be discussed over and over. It would negate the babbles advantage, it would negate the silient dogs disadvantage, and in FACT would be no different than awarding separate tree points for separate trees. Strike points SHOULD be treated no different for separate tracks. Dave

This makes a lot of sense, but I think there would probably be too many tied scores. One hour hunt and you have multiple dogs split with a coon and times runs out scoring them, who wins? Probably would be plenty of ties back at the club house too.

I've never packed a very good strike dog so your rules would have changed the game for me on some of my placements, but I don't think it would work.

I'm liking what I see so far from the new UKC hunt rules.

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Posted by Bayin'Blues on 04-26-2020 10:39 AM:

Re: Eric DePue

quote:
Originally posted by Dave Richards
Some of these posts are absolutely hilarious, why anyone would think a dog treeing first on a separate track was better than a dog that tree later on a different coon is beyond reason. A better way would be to award strike points based on dogs treeing different coons, just like we do now with awarding different tree points for different trees. Our point system for strike and tree was based on the pack dog concept and worked just fine when dogs packed up. Now with dogs splitting in different direction, often striking and treeing different coons, the strike points ARE the problem. When dogs tree separate the tree points are adjusted accordingly, WHY can't the strike point be adjusted when it was determined the dog indeed was on a separate track, evidenced by the coon seen in the dogs tree. It does not take rocket science to figure this out, and would equalize the strike advantage. One simply fix for a problem that continues to be discussed over and over. It would negate the babbles advantage, it would negate the silient dogs disadvantage, and in FACT would be no different than awarding separate tree points for separate trees. Strike points SHOULD be treated no different for separate tracks. Dave

__________________
Curtis J Todd
912-618-8412

Team Blazin' Timber

Posted by yadkintar on 04-26-2020 01:22 PM:

Your going to see more coon treeing contest with these new rules. No more babble blow deep one coon a hunt leash lock you winners anymore.

Tar

Posted by novicane65 on 04-26-2020 08:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by yadkintar
Your going to see more coon treeing contest with these new rules. No more babble blow deep one coon a hunt leash lock you winners anymore.

Tar

We'll see......

I like the fact that I can recut. I like a bunch of them but I honestly don't care for the 3 minute rule on trees. But I guess we'll have to see how it plays out.

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