UKC Forums - guess i don't understand

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Posted by Epson on 08-11-2010 09:42 PM:

guess i don't understand

I've been reading many posts on here of a person looking for pups to breed to their pups in the future when the pups they plan on having are out of a pup itself.... i guess i don't understand the point of planning that far ahead and breeding a pup to have pups... and telling everyone you'll take a pup off their dog and come buy there dog and on and on and on.... guess i'm just not understanding whats on this persons mind?? guess i'm just venting a bit! sorry

Posted by psiskjr on 08-11-2010 10:01 PM:

I do understand planning future breeding as much as two or three years in advance. The problem is that they dont always work out. I used to plan to breed my Plott hounds as much as three years in advance. But, myself and my hunting partners were keeping all of them and they had to meet the grade to make it to the brood pen. Also my dogs are so tight bred that a high percentage make the cut. Sometimes, as they were bear dogs, a lesser dog would make the cut only by attrition, to continue the line. All breedings were made with the thought of improving the line though.

psiskjr

Posted by John D on 08-11-2010 10:18 PM:

I hear ya'. It seems like we have alot more coonhound breeders than we have coonhunters. I never could understand why a person getting into coonhunting is immediately thinking about what to cross their pup on. Or, why do they get a pup and then ask the message board about the dogs in their pup's pedigree, or what would be good to cross the pup on?

This is a red flag about their knowledge level. How can they possibly have any clue about breeding when they don't know much about coonhunting or the dog they are messing with?

IMO, someone ought to pay their dues for 10-15 years training some pups, getting them titled, and becoming successful at that before breeding.

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Posted by real tree bluet on 08-11-2010 11:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
I hear ya'. It seems like we have alot more coonhound breeders than we have coonhunters. I never could understand why a person getting into coonhunting is immediately thinking about what to cross their pup on. Or, why do they get a pup and then ask the message board about the dogs in their pup's pedigree, or what would be good to cross the pup on?

This is a red flag about their knowledge level. How can they possibly have any clue about breeding when they don't know much about coonhunting or the dog they are messing with?

IMO, someone ought to pay their dues for 10-15 years training some pups, getting them titled, and becoming successful at that before breeding.

Got that right, this is why there are so many dogs that are never hunted! I myself even in this heat hunt 3 nites a week and 5nites in winter, and when i get one started work him for one year by itself seems to make coon dog not just a average dog!! There so many people on here that do alot of talking about hunting but never seem to be hunting there dog!! (NICK)

Posted by croatankid on 08-11-2010 11:49 PM:

i'm a hunter not a breeder. i get my dogs and puppies from the breeders. the breeders are interested in what they do and spend a lot of time planning and studying blood lines and such.
the hunters need the breeders to produce the best possible puppies and the breeders need the hunters to test and develope their puppies. of course there is some crossover.

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Posted by dean mace on 08-12-2010 12:36 AM:

Breeders

I have owned hounds for 30yrs,I hunt atleast 3 nights aweek now since summer is hard this year,winter hunt about every night.I will say it does take more than a month or two to make a well broke hound.I hate to say that because i train and hunt hounds for others.I myself have just raised first litter of pups from my female only 3 beat the hot weather,but the way i see it thats all i need to keep me going if i can make something out of them i will be happy.The money means nothing if your a true houndsmen.seeing a hound youve spent a year or so raising treed is the pay off.

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Posted by Rick Ennen on 08-12-2010 12:45 AM:

When I was young and a bit more impetuous than at present, I jumped into breeding coonhounds. A couple pups made easily impressed people happy but most of them ended up in a hole in the ground because nobody wanted them and they were just junk in the first place. I got out of dogs for several years, but 30 more years passed before I finally got the courage and my hands on dogs that pleased me enough in the woods to be worth breeding. And I'm only doing this breeding for my own use.

Posted by Epson on 08-12-2010 12:53 AM:

i understand the part when you have raised, trained, and finished a dog and want to breed it and keep a pup and do the same with your pup when its older and finished, i have no problem with that at all! i have hounds that i really like and some i like but not enough to breed them. i just don't understand how you can want to breed a dog that is just barely over a year old and never had a good season of hunting on it and want to breed it for pups then plan that pups stud when its not even alive yet. it frustrates me since that in my opinion is not bettering the breeds its just breeding for pups, which is why there are so many worthless dogs out there. i'm thankful for the breeders that do the work and put the effort into it but i guess i'll stick to hunting my dogs til they can prove to me in my eyes that i would want a pup out of them....

Posted by Chiggers on 08-12-2010 01:41 AM:

After the first 20 nights in the woods and I know if I want a pup out of a dog.

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Posted by patches9452 on 08-12-2010 02:31 AM:

to each his own but i have personaly had better luck with dogs off of nothing than i have so called stud dogs and good bred dogs

Posted by countryboys on 08-12-2010 02:06 PM:

my dad always used to tell me he never seen papers tree a coon. Ive had high pwoered pups that could sit in a pen with a coon and pay it no attention. then the culls off of just two ole backwoods dog win and show up these high powered dogs.

Posted by Fester on 08-12-2010 06:32 PM:

Off UKC's website

"What to breed to?"......No time to hunt......Too many young dogs.....What to breed to....Cutting back....No time to hunt.....Need to move ASAP......No time to hunt......Will take trades......No time to hunt....Kennel reduction sale.....What to breed to.....No time to hunt......Should be a good cross.....Too many young dogs.......No time to hunt.....Will trade for something that dont eat.....What to breed to......Gotta move some dogs ........No time to hunt.....Can't do them justice......What to breed to......Need advice on training.....No time to hunt.....Free to a youth.....Price reduced to comp hunters.......What to breed to......No time to hunt......Up coming cross,anyone interested......Too many young dogs.....No time to hunt......Need to move ASAP...... What to breed to....Will trade for something that dont eat........No time to hunt.....What to breed to.....No time to hunt....What to breed to......No time to hunt....What to breed to.....No time to hunt...No time to hunt....No time to hunt.....No time to hunt........No time to hunt.......No time to hunt.....Oh yeah,I almost forgot..." What to breed to"?..............

Posted by EnglishBabe on 08-12-2010 06:50 PM:

Was all that posted by the same person or just random sayings in ads. Cause I see that a lot. I will say, I have used the too many dogs one, but it was true. I had to face a harsh reality that I had more dogs then I could handle and hunt. I usually try to only breed if I'm wanting to keep a pup. The last litter was an 'oops' because the brazen slut of the east crawled the kennel to get into the male. We did end up keeping a pup from that litter and he is turning out nicely. There will be no more litters of coonhounds at this place until Tori can prove she is a coondog, has about 2 or 3 more years of growing up and I find the right male that will give me (hopefully) what I'm looking for.

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Posted by Fester on 08-12-2010 07:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by EnglishBabe
Was all that posted by the same person or just random sayings in ads. Cause I see that a lot.

In a nut shell, every year there is way more hounds being produced than there is people to hunt them. It almost seems breeding,selling,and jockying hounds is a more popular sport than treeing coons. JMO.

Posted by EnglishBabe on 08-12-2010 07:15 PM:

If your just in it for breeding and selling pups, then you don't have the breeds best interest at heart. IMO your only looking to make a buck and that is just plain WRONG!

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Posted by Cleo on 08-12-2010 08:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Fester
In a nut shell, every year there is way more hounds being produced than there is people to hunt them. It almost seems breeding,selling,and jockying hounds is a more popular sport than treeing coons. JMO.

And if you don't believe this, there is a big coon hunt at the first of every year with people LINED all around it selling "hounds"....it is the saddest thing. They no more thought of helping the breed, then the man in the moon. JMO.

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Posted by dean mace on 08-13-2010 12:42 AM:

BIG HUNT

YEP,KNOW WHAT HUNT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.I DONT CARE FOR HSUS BUT SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT THE POOR, SICK HOUNDS THAT PEOPLE JUST GATHER UP TO TRY PUTTING A LIE WITH OR SET OF BAD PAPERS SO THEY CAN MAKE A DOLLAR.I HAVE BOUGHT YOUNG DOGS AT 2 OF THE BIG HUNTS JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE SO POOR LOOK LIKE THEY HAD NOT EAT IN A WHILE.AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT AFTER GETTING THEM BACK IN SHAPE TURNED INTO NICE HOUNDS....BUT LIKE I SAY IF SOMEONE WOULD DO THERE JOBS AND LEAVE HONEST PEOPLE ALONG.AND GET THE ONES THAT DONT CARE FOR THERE DOGS IT WILL HELP US ALL....NOTHING ELSE THE KC THAT HAS THE HUNTS SHOULD BAN THEM FROM SELLING SICK HOUNDS.

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Posted by real tree bluet on 08-13-2010 04:00 AM:

Re: BIG HUNT

quote:
Originally posted by dean mace
YEP,KNOW WHAT HUNT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.I DONT CARE FOR HSUS BUT SOMETHING SHOULD BE DONE ABOUT THE POOR, SICK HOUNDS THAT PEOPLE JUST GATHER UP TO TRY PUTTING A LIE WITH OR SET OF BAD PAPERS SO THEY CAN MAKE A DOLLAR.I HAVE BOUGHT YOUNG DOGS AT 2 OF THE BIG HUNTS JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE SO POOR LOOK LIKE THEY HAD NOT EAT IN A WHILE.AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT AFTER GETTING THEM BACK IN SHAPE TURNED INTO NICE HOUNDS....BUT LIKE I SAY IF SOMEONE WOULD DO THERE JOBS AND LEAVE HONEST PEOPLE ALONG.AND GET THE ONES THAT DONT CARE FOR THERE DOGS IT WILL HELP US ALL....NOTHING ELSE THE KC THAT HAS THE HUNTS SHOULD BAN THEM FROM SELLING SICK HOUNDS.

Dean I agree these kind of people should not be aloud at any hunt, and if they do they should be barred from all KC and the dogs be taken!! I myself cant stand to any animal poor! We hunt almost everynite and cant seem to understand why you even would keep a dog if your not going to hunt it or feed it!?!

Posted by Cleo on 08-13-2010 12:10 PM:

Re: BIG HUNT

quote:
Originally posted by dean mace
....NOTHING ELSE THE KC THAT HAS THE HUNTS SHOULD BAN THEM FROM SELLING SICK HOUNDS.

The SCCHA does a great job at the event but there is only so much they can do. I did notice a lot more DNR peeps around this year checking peeps out!

All you can do is what you can do.....

Posted by Oak Ridge on 08-13-2010 01:35 PM:

Re: guess i don't understand

quote:
Originally posted by Epson
I've been reading many posts on here of a person looking for pups to breed to their pups in the future when the pups they plan on having are out of a pup itself.... i guess i don't understand the point of planning that far ahead and breeding a pup to have pups... and telling everyone you'll take a pup off their dog and come buy there dog and on and on and on.... guess i'm just not understanding whats on this persons mind?? guess i'm just venting a bit! sorry

Epson,

I fancy myself as a "breeder". Why....??? Because I keep a whole kennel full of dogs for the purpose of breeding....I make selections on pups starting at 12 weeks old, for breeding purposes....I feed dogs every day that I don't hunt on a regular basis....because I value them as breeding stock. We also breed horses...we don't ride our breeding stock every day...some have never had a saddle on them, but that doesn't mean we are not going to breed them!

In reality, there are VERY FEW TRUE BREEDERS in the coon hunting world. Sure, there are lots of folks that take their female to a stud dog, and there are a lot of stud dog owners...but very few folks out there that are maintaining a kennel of dogs, complete with their own stud dogs, that should be considered a breeder. I'm now working on my 5th generation of dogs out of my own kennel. I don't buy dogs...I raise them, hunt them, evaluate the traits that they inherited...can tell you how they resemble parents, grand-parents, aunts, uncles, great aunts etc.....

I am guilty of making a cross to get a pup with the intent of breeding that pup to a certain stud dog in the future...I do this all of the time....the difference is that I don't make the cross just because I planned it.... I would like to think that I can predict the traits a dog will inherit from it's parents and grand-parents....and to an extent...I can do that, but it's far from a 100% "sure thing".

The way I see it.... why worry about what other people are doing? This is a hobby, and NO I don't make any money raising puppies....not one thin dime if you calculate what I have invested by the time that "special" litter is born. Most folks have a truck payment every month....I don't have a truck payment, cause I drive an old junk truck...instead, I pay in dog food and vet bills, and kennel upkeep each month what most folks pay in a truck payment. I do it because I enjoy it...and I'm sure that those folks who you seem to have singled out do it because they enjoy it too.

If I could offer you a piece of advice... stick with what works for you.... Buy the pups, old dogs, or young started dogs that you want to, and try not to worry about what everyone else is doing. Buy your dogs from someone who has owned more than one generation of the dogs they are raising if you are buying pups. And let folks enjoy hunting the dogs they like, breeding those dogs if they want, and planning breedings 10 years in advance if that is what makes them happy!

I hope this doesn't sound too "bitter"....I just don't understand why some folks want to tell others what's right or wrong!

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UKC Cur Advocate
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Posted by Cleo on 08-13-2010 01:52 PM:

Joe,

There are few people out there who do what you do. You have goals and dreams of what you want and have been doing, and proving, this for years.

You are the exception to the rule in my opinion. You and the hand full of others out there that take the time to KNOW why they make a cross and WHAT they are looking for.

My hat is off to you and those like you. There is a couple of red bone breeders out there that do a wonderful job making the crosses that work. Crosses that have been planed for years. ~I am NOT just singling out RB, that is just my breed of choice so I pay attention to who's doing what.

It's breeders like you that keep the sport, as well as all coonhound breeds, looking forward to the future. JMO

Posted by dean mace on 08-13-2010 02:04 PM:

CLEO

I NEVER SAID WHAT STATE OR HUNT IT WAS,BUT ITS NOT ONLY THE ONE YOUR TALKING OF.YES LAST COUPLE YEARS THEY ARE CRACKING DOWN AT THE GR. BUT THERE ARE OTHERS ALSO.AND NOT JUST IN S.C. .....BUT THE BEST THING FOR EVERYONE UNLESS YOUR BUYING A PUP TO START,,BUY YOUR COON HOUNDS OFF THE TREE THEN YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR BUYING.MOST THE TRADE LOT FELLOWS WANT TAKE A HOUND TO THE WOODS..THERE A REASON FOR THAT.

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Posted by Cleo on 08-13-2010 02:49 PM:

Dean~

Gottcha.

Being a memeber of the SCCHA I had to cover my tail on that! LOL. I am so sure there are many, many out there. I am sure there are a lot that have found great homes and are being used for the reason they were put here....really at the GA, there are way more breeds being peddled then just hounds.

I did notice that there were no more pits there this year....I don't know why, but something must have been said about not letting them on the grounds. I did hear that 2 years ago they had a problem with someone being bitten, or so I was TOLD. DK for a fact.....

Posted by Ron Ashbaugh on 08-13-2010 05:10 PM:

I am not a breeder at all and for a good part of my time doing this I was all for letting others breed the dogs, I would put down my money for a pup, raise it, do my best to train it, and see how the cards fell. Just recently one of these pups turned out to be about the perfect dog "FOR ME" Others might hate her but I enjoy turning her loose near every night. Also at this time I started attending a couple night hunts and got to see a little sample of what other people are hunting. It was this combination of factors that has made me want to raise at least one litter of my own pups. #1 because I would love to have one like both the sire and the dam and #2 because by golly I didn't like hunting with the other dogs I hunted with more than my own and #3 I hunt an off color dog and have been trying to buy a well bred pup for 6 months and have had 3 fall through.

Is it a mistake for me to want to raise a litter out of dog I enjoy? Maybe, but its one I am willing to make and deal with the results no matter what they may be. Planning for the future is fun in a night after night grind that it takes to make a decent dog. Every great endeavor starts with a plan and goals. If it keeps people motivated to talk about it.......who cares????

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Posted by Epson on 08-13-2010 08:06 PM:

I'm not telling anyone whats right or wrong and i don't really care what they do with there dogs, i just didn't understand why there are soooooooo many dogs out there that are in shelters or whatever, dogs that are just sitting there but hey lets breed for more, more, and more.

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