UKC Forums - Hunt scoring question?????

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-18-2014 03:35 PM:

Hunt scoring question?????

All dogs are struck and treed. Dog B is struck for 75 pts and treed for 75 pts. As cast gets to tree, Dog B is seen off the tree and milling around and then goes back on the tree. The judge says, "Dog B is minused his tree points" and handler of Dog B agrees. All dogs are handled and cast scores tree. They all agree that it is slick and minuses dogs A, C and D on strike and tree. Now how do you score dog B? Are his strike points minused or circled for "coming into a tree where no coon is seen"?

Posted by high ridge on 04-18-2014 03:38 PM:

No coon seen. Score it just like he came into the tree. Because after he took tree minus that's what he did, came into a closed tree

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 04-18-2014 03:51 PM:

Does dog B go back on the tree he was treed on or does he go back on the tree dogs A, C, and D were treed on?

Do the trees touch so that you are scoring as all one tree or was dog B actually on a totally separate tree?

If he went to Dogs A,B,D before the cast arrived at the tree he gets minuses his strike. If he went to dogs A,C,D after cast arrives his strike gets circled.

If he went back to his original tree that he was split on, then the judge can apply the stationary, (after completing the scoring of dogs A,C,D) and at that point the handler of dog B must decide if/when he is going to tree his dog at that particular tree. After that you would score his strike and tree points based on what you found on that tree.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 04-18-2014 03:54 PM:

Sorry my bad, please disregard most of my post as I mis-read. As their is no mention of a split. Sorry, my brain is not yet working this morning,LOL

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-18-2014 05:08 PM:

High Ridge, that is how I would score it and that is what MOH ruled but 2 cast members called UKC/Paul Frederick the next day. According to them, Mr Frederick said that Dog B should have gotten his 75 tree points minused and then been awarded more tree points and gotten them minused also plus his strike.

Posted by T Felderman on 04-18-2014 05:17 PM:

Mr. Lambert

I think Paul was correct. It all depends if the dog that was minused for leaving went back to treeing before the cast arrived. I'm not good at quoting rule numbers but there is rule that states dog(s) will be minused strike and awarded next available tree points for treeing on slick tree if not declared treed before the cast arrives.

Something like that

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-18-2014 05:30 PM:

Going strictly by your scenario, dog B takes minus tree and then is handled because he comes back to the tree while the cast is already at the tree so his strike points are circled.
When the cast arrives at the tree the dog is either treed or not, you cant minus the dog for not being treed and then turn around and assign tree points for being treed when the cast arrives.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-18-2014 05:43 PM:

In my opinion, if you can see that the dog is off the tree well enough to minus him, then you have "arrived at the tree". But I guess that UKC does not think this way. Also I wonder what "next availabe position" is when all tree points have been used?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-18-2014 05:48 PM:

Re: Mr. Lambert

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
I think Paul was correct. I'm not good at quoting rule numbers but there is rule that states dog(s) will be minused strike and awarded next available tree points for treeing on slick tree if not declared treed before the cast arrives.

But the dog was declared treed before the cast arrived and then minused for being off the tree. Now how are you going to tree him back in on a closed tree?

Posted by Surveyor on 04-18-2014 06:01 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
In my opinion, if you can see that the dog is off the tree well enough to minus him, then you have "arrived at the tree". But I guess that UKC does not think this way. Also I wonder what "next availabe position" is when all tree points have been used?

That would be my opinion also-hard to say when I got to the tree the dog was off the tree so I minused him, but when I really got to the tree he was back on it, so I awarded him next available position and minused him again=huh?? It will be interesting to see Paul weigh in on this, perhaps that isn't the way he was told it happened by the other guys, I know first hand that people call him with rule questions and scenerios that are significantly different than what really happened in the woods.

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Posted by randy ar on 04-18-2014 06:48 PM:

Dog minused 75 for being off tree. Then he is minused 75 strike and next available which would be 25 on tree for being handled on a slick tree.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 04-18-2014 07:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by randy ar
Dog minused 75 for being off tree. Then he is minused 75 strike and next available which would be 25 on tree for being handled on a slick tree.

You can only arrive at the tree once. Was the dog treed or not?
If he took 75 minus for not being treed, how can he take more minus for going back when rule 5B clearly states that no dog to recieve minus for coming into tree after judge arrives unless a coon is seen.
In order to assign tree points you have to use 4k which only applies if the dog is treeing when the judge arrives.

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Posted by Rustic Kennels on 04-18-2014 08:44 PM:

tree points

I have a question. How can you award next tree points anyway when, if I read correctly, all 4 dogs had been treed. There would not have been any points available to award or am I looking at it wrong?

Posted by T Felderman on 04-19-2014 02:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
In my opinion, if you can see that the dog is off the tree well enough to minus him, then you have "arrived at the tree". But I guess that UKC does not think this way. Also I wonder what "next availabe position" is when all tree points have been used?

Oh I agree, just giving a scenario that could have happened.

Next available is 25

Posted by berger on 04-19-2014 08:54 AM:

Re: Mr. Lambert

quote:
Originally posted by T Felderman
I'm not good at quoting rule numbers but there is rule that states dog(s) will be minused strike and awarded next available tree points for treeing on slick tree if not declared treed before the cast arrives.

That's another rule that needs to be eliminated just like the stationary tree rule. ELIMINATE them both

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Posted by STROKIN on 04-19-2014 11:38 AM:

If dog is seen milling the tree, you have reached the tree. Dog can not get next available position. He is circled on his strike, minus on tree for 75.

Posted by shawnfitzgerald on 04-19-2014 12:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by STROKIN
If dog is seen milling the tree, you have reached the tree. Dog can not get next available position. He is circled on his strike, minus on tree for 75.

this is exactly how it should have been scored but his strike should be deleted those circle might come in to play in a tie breaker. But there is not a whole lot of common sense used these days

Posted by pamjohnson on 04-19-2014 01:37 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by shawnfitzgerald
this is exactly how it should have been scored but his strike should be deleted those circle might come in to play in a tie breaker. But there is not a whole lot of common sense used these days

5b in the rule book covers this and they get circled (not deleted) not common sense its the rule.

Posted by shawnfitzgerald on 04-19-2014 01:52 PM:

I know what the rule is I was saying that is how it should scored. Why would you circle? There is no hiding place for a coon. I started hunting these hunts almost 30 years ago ukc need to change a few rules now and did then as well. Count down on trees next available rule etc. they are adding a few new rules such as can use a garmin during hunting time roflmao

Posted by runnin rebels on 04-19-2014 04:44 PM:

according to he advisor if the dog and cast arrive at the same time = the dog came in after

p42

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Posted by jackbob42 on 04-19-2014 07:36 PM:

I would score things as they happen....

All dogs treed = tree is closed.
Dog leaves tree = minus his tree points.
Dog comes in to closed tree = score accordingly.

Simple.

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Posted by Playntreetag on 04-19-2014 09:49 PM:

Arriving

What does UKC say arriving at the tree is or is it a judgement call too... Is it when all cast members can see the tree or is it when judge say handle the dogs...

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 04-21-2014 04:24 PM:

Re: Arriving

quote:
Originally posted by Playntreetag
[B.... or is it when judge say handle the dogs... [/B]

If this were the case then a judge could just wait until the dog came back and got back up on the tree. All right "UKC", we have been patiently waiting on y'all to get back from Walker Days. If you wait a couple more days then the leaves will be back and it won't matter until next winter.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 04-21-2014 06:58 PM:

I'm not Paul but.........

If the dog was off the tree and milling when the judge arrived then he certainly cannot be a dog treeing but not declared treed when the judge arrived. Can't be both!

I asked Paul about speaking with anyone in this regard. Sounds like the stories are not exactly the same.

Per your description, I'd minus tree points for Dog B and consider him a dog coming in after the judge arrived and circle up his strike points.

Posted by Paul Frederick on 04-21-2014 07:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
High Ridge, that is how I would score it and that is what MOH ruled but 2 cast members called UKC/Paul Frederick the next day. According to them, Mr Frederick said that Dog B should have gotten his 75 tree points minused and then been awarded more tree points and gotten them minused also plus his strike.

Sorry Richard for not responding before now.

If I'm thinking about the same person I talked to, the situation was completely different than how you present it in your first post. Here was their scenario:

Dogs A, B, C, D all struck and treed in that order. Several hundred yards before they get to the tree, dog B is heard trailing left-handed a considerable distance. Dog B is minused for being off the tree. When they get to the tree, B is back and treeing with other dogs.

Now you can see how I ruled dog B as a dog treeing but not declared treed when the Judge arrived.

Sorry for the confusion but it is difficult when the scenarios are changed just a little bit this way or that. It can make a completely different ruling and a completely different outcome.

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