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-- Allen Gingerich (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=358061)

Allen Gingerich

Allen

Although I agree with a lot of what you said in the June advisor about hunters wanting credit for anything that would get them a win or would discredit another hound so they can get a win. The top of the rule side of a score card says HONOR Rules!!! What a lot of hunters refuse to understand is that getting credit for something your hound didn't do doesn't make your dog any better! The only things that people will remember in a nite hunt cast that they lost is how fairly they were treated and if the hound that beat their dog really beat the other dogs in the cast or were they crooked,cheated or out handled.

I have to disagree with 1 point when you said "coon don't jump, ride trees into other trees or walk grapevines like tightropes" I live in East Tennessee and have coon hunted all of my life (that is about 35 years of coon hunting) and have hunted all over the country yes for the most part a COON DOG will tree coons in the tree they are treed up!!! but on several hunts I have seen coon go out of site going from tree to tree to tree most happend when the coons were treed red hot and we got to the tree in a minute or two. Here is 3 different times that it happend:
1) Had a couple of young dogs and turned a coon loose in front of them in a field they treed the coon and as we were going in we could see the coon climb to the top of the tree then jump over to the next tree and walk out a limb on that tree until he got into a row of pines and was still moving when we lost sight of him.

2) On a night hunt struck a hot track treed on the edge of a field went in to the tree and all 3 handlers saw the coon leave out of a hickory on a small limb and ride it into a large oak where he went into a den!

3) 1 dog falls treed in a fence row just above a pond wait the five minutes handle the dog step to the same place the cast was standing when the dog was treed shined and in the tree right beside the tree the dog was treed up there sat the coon while myself and another handler watched this coon start to walk out a limb and ride it down to about 1 foot over the top of a ceadar tree and drop into the top of it and climb down into a squirrels nest. All handlers saw the coon(On this hunt my dog was the one on the tree and it was voted that my dog should be minused as the others would get minused on track the reason they voted that way is the coon was first seen in the tree beside of the tree my dog was treed up I could stand and touch both trees at the same time)

So this is why I have to disagree with you and your comments about how coons will cross they spend a lot of their lives in trees so to think that they can't cross over, jump out, ride very small limbs or can't tightrope grape vines is just not true.

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I AGREE WITH YOU 100 %

one night this last winter my huntting buddys Cash dog treed on a log that had a grape vine touching it the log did not go to the tree at all he walked alog side the log untill he got to where the grape vine run from the log up into the tree it was a full moon night about 15 to 16 degrees out side and you could see the coon with out a light , so the vine was the only way that the coon could have gotten in the tree.

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Yep witnessed one do a camacazi jump from one tree to another (and the trees did not touch)....... he jumped right above my head and that was the funniest thing I have ever seen..... lol

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I think the point is that the line has to be drawn somewhere. We all know when dogs "miss" and normally it's obvious. It makes me sick when cast members try to score trees that have a coon in the next tree over, ADDED ( WITH NO OBVIOUS CROSSING POINT )yes there is a chance the coon could have crossed. About 1 in 1,000.

Yes coon will cross but very very and I mean very seldom.

Anyone that has been coonhunting for any length of time has seen crazy things where coon can climb or crossover or jump....
but these are competition hunting rules. There must be some sort of guideline. From what I understand according to the rules in all the registries, trees must at least touch and have some sort of reasonable avenue to cross over. If not we'll have casts scoring coons anywhere on the fence row, anywhere in that small patch of timber. If you're going to score a coon in a tree 3 trees away, why not 10 trees away? Why not 20?

If having your dog treeing coons in separate trees that do not touch, or having a coon 3-4 trees down the fence row is good enough for you maybe you ought to stick to hunting with a rifle and bragging to your friends how accurate your dog is.

If I'm in a cast, that coon needs to be in the tree the dog is on or must have a reasonable avenue to get from one place to another, I don't care if its your dog or mine.

I was pleasure hunting one night and my pup got treed on a large oak tree. While shining the oak tree, I noticed a coon in a large pine next to the oak. Well, I couldn't find a coon in the oak so I just shot at the coon in the pine. When I hit him he took off running out a limb, made a big jump and landed back in the oak that my dog was treeing on!

CWS rules are rules kinda like when a dog meets you off the tree and goes back to treeing lol

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I know that there has to be a line drawn somewhere and we as hunters have to use our knowledge of the rules and apply them as best we can FAIRLY!!! that is the big issue with most casts that have arguments is what is good for one dog is bad for another.
My comments were not to start a debate about the scoring of trees I understand what Allen was trying to say I just wanted him to know that the statments that he made that coons can't cross over with small limbs or climb a grapevine from one tree to another is just not true. As a lot of young hunters read what is in the advisor and may even take any of Allen's statements as the gospel I just wanted to bring it to his attention. Now I also want to say that I'm not bashing Allen either as he is well respected in the coon hunting world and I think he is doing his job well. So this is not to run any one down or try to prove a point just some information and to bring something to light that I know to be true.

One more thing about scoring a tree 20 years ago or more in the dead of winter the dogs run a hot track and tree, go into the tree it is a tree with a crook about 20 foot high that goes out and then back up and doesn't have a limb on it. One guy starts to whip his dog for lying the dog yelps out and then a coon laying in the flat part of the crook looks. The coon is shot and when it moves two more raise up from the crook three coons laying flat on the trunk of a tree and 2 very experienced hunters missed them a coon can hide in a tree as well. That said I'm still not saying dogs shouldn't be minused on trees. We play a game that sometimes the breaks go our way and other times they go against us. A good man once told me its not how you react to winning anybody can win but it takes character to be a good looser and in every cast you have 1 winner and 3 loosers when you leave the club so you will lose more than you win the law of averages will get you every time,

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Brogy

So if your dog has 1st and 1st on a tree and the coon is seen move from one tree to another then jump (not climb) to another tree you want your dog minused?

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JESUS DIED FOR YOU THAT YOU CAN LIVE FOR HIM

If all the dogs are handled plus it up.

got love the good ole acrobatic coon in these nite hunts. lol

Re: Brogy

quote:

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Originally posted by mike bryant
So if your dog has 1st and 1st on a tree and the coon is seen move from one tree to another then jump (not climb) to another tree you want your dog minused?

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This thread and the subject of scoring crossovers reminds me of a story I heard about well known stud promoter when in a hunt his dog got treed way across the back side of a section. When the cast arrives they find the dog is treed on a power pole along the next road. The give it a quick look and ready to move on when this guy begins walking down the road shining the powerline and each pole down the line.
The cast laughs and asks "What are you doing?" He says " I know he's got a coon here somewhere".
The judge and cast majority gave him his minus.
I'm mean I'm sure somewhere on that power grid within that county there was a coon sitting on a pole.
What some folks will do to avoid taking they're minus.

Brogy,

I am glad to here that you did what you thought was right but in my decription of the tree I was talking about 1 dog was handled at the tree the others hadn't come in yet 2 handlers see the coon move from one tree to the other and start to tell the other cast members to hurry he is moving. By the time they get there the coon is in the nest but looking (yes 1 tree is between the dogs tree and the ceadar tree w/nest) now the other dogs come into the tree and are handled when I go to score the tree they all say minus track and tree. (I voted to plus) but I was out voted and that was that i munised the tree.

Now as I have said I'm not trying to start an argument or even a disagreement I just made posts of what I have saw with my own eyes. I don't want my dog to have credit for what is doesn't deserve but I do like for them to get what they do deserve!

I also understand what you are saying about handlers wanting to plus coons down 3 or 4 trees I don't like it and will vote against it as long as I don't think the coon COULD or DID cross, mine or anyone elses.

__________________
JESUS DIED FOR YOU THAT YOU CAN LIVE FOR HIM

Mike,

I'm not arguing either. I know what you're saying. You're right, Lets say you're dog is treed and you take the first 2 minutes of shine time, find the coon and say "Hurry up boys, he's moving". If they get there and the coon has crossed over, in good judgement they should take your word for it and plussed that coon (assuming there was a reasonable avenue for it to get there). If they're dogs coming in late is going to sway the way they're going to score a tree, then you're not with a cast of sportsman anyway.

My point is seeing the coon crossover during shine time and finding a coon in a completely separate tree is a big, big difference.

anybody thats ever drawn us knows mike we will give em the benefit of the doubt but we aint playin connect the dots with or for no one we have all seen em timber at one time or another we dont have enough coons to worry bout findin many sittin around where ours tree though do we so they have to be the one the dogs was after lol

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quote:

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Originally posted by CWS
I think the point is that the line has to be drawn somewhere. We all know when dogs "miss" and normally it's obvious. It makes me sick when cast members try to score trees that have a coon in the next tree over, ADDED ( WITH NO OBVIOUS CROSSING POINT )yes there is a chance the coon could have crossed. About 1 in 1,000.

Yes coon will cross but very very and I mean very seldom.

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More excuses

For more PAPER TIGERS

I have turned my dogs loose and they tree but sound like they are baying. me and my dad, who has been hunting for about 35 years, walk in and the dogs are under alot of priveys. the coon is on top and walking from one to another. i couldnt believe it.

quote:

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Originally posted by countryboys
I have turned my dogs loose and they tree but sound like they are baying. me and my dad, who has been hunting for about 35 years, walk in and the dogs are under alot of priveys. the coon is on top and walking from one to another. i couldnt believe it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oklared
HOW DO YOU KNOW?

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Re: Allen Gingerich

quote:

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Originally posted by mike bryant

The top of the rule side of a score card says HONOR Rules!!! What a lot of hunters refuse to understand is that getting credit for something your hound didn't do doesn't make your dog any better!

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Look everyone I'm not saying that dogs shouldn't be minused or that coons cross out on every tree I was just making a true statement to Allen about the fact of what he said in the advisor in the June issue of the coonhound bloodlines that coons couldn't or didn't cross out that is all I said. No where at no time did I say score coons that aren't in the tree or in trees that did cross do I believe in giving the dog the benefit of the doubt YES I DO. A lot of you guys are saying if the coon has a clear path to CROSS OUT Doubt stops when the dog(s) is treed in a fence row and the coon is 5 trees down even though in most fence rows the coon could go up one end and find a way (if it wanted to to go to the other end). We all know that coon shouldn't be plussed.

To give an example last year I was judging at Autum Oaks my dog and 2 more were treed in a fence row. A fouth is treed 15 foot away the trees touched but I minused the 3 becuse in my judgement they were treed on the page wire fence attached to the tree and the other dog had the coon up her tree so she was plussed. One guy wanted to argue just a bit and I told him to think about how he would feel if his dog had been the one under the coon how would he feel about the other 3 dogs then he looked up and said minus these 3. We went on and had a good hunt.

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mike i was at an rqe this year and a guys dog got treed deep by itself and he did not want to tree the dog we start the five he treed his dog at 450 something on the way there kept saying the dog is not right when we get there its a big tree my dog and another dog comes in we shine for almost the whole time and the 13 year old kid that was hunting said look i found the coon in the tree at least 18 inches away guess what the guy whos dog was there was the judges and talked the kid into plussing the tree because coon jump cost me the hunt and taught a kid how to cheat if the better dog wins so be it but we need guidlines to follow that rule needs to be put on the card

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Brandon

Where do you all wanna draw the line? 18-24 inches 4 feet? Ill have to start carrying my tape mesure with me!

I agree if the limbs do not touch it shouldnt be scored i agree it is a good excuse to cover up a dog missing

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