UKC Forums - Does a cast have right to refuse a drop?

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-- Does a cast have right to refuse a drop? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=343713)

Posted by cartwright on 03-24-2010 02:21 AM:

Does a cast have right to refuse a drop?

If a guide takes you into a place for a drop to close to the highway in which you feel unsafe to turn loose. Do you have a right to refuse with out having to withdraw? For an example: This particular drop is right beside a four lane interstate with 70 mph speed limits just off the exits between two different two lane roads with 40 mph speed limits. Guys are with drawling from the hunt because the guide refuses to take the cast somewhere else. I have never been guided to this spot... But it is very dangerous a freind of mine had a dog killed from casting in this spot and the guide knows about it... If I ever end up in this situation I won't to know my rights... Please note this guide is the president of the club, the hunt director and is trying to become the Master of Hounds.Thanks, JR

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Posted by boonetreecoon on 03-24-2010 02:26 AM:

You should be able to. Or ask if there's. Another spot you can go to. Or worst comes to worst just withdraw nothings worth getting a hound killed

Posted by cartwright on 03-24-2010 02:30 AM:

Withdrawing is fine but you pay your entry fee and its not fair. I think the guy does it hopping you will withdraw so he can win... We need a rule to protect us from such ignorant people. He isn't much of a man to take ther to start with... JMO

Posted by boonetreecoon on 03-24-2010 02:33 AM:

Probably. If everyone refuses the turn their dog loose he should have no other choice just take you to another place. Your right we need a rule protecting us from that

Posted by mauser06 on 03-24-2010 02:34 AM:

if its an honest problem and others feel the same way (withdrawing because of the guide and hes doing it repeatedly and wont take the cast elsewhere)

id start at the club...have everyone goto a meeting and voice your opinion..."we want him to quit taking us to that drop or we will NOT be back." hit him in the wallet. get as many people as possible to back you..thats a hit in the wallet which is important to a club as most of y'all are regulars and are at most of their events...

if he/they refuse, id ban together and quit going...

and/or report the issue...someone here may know more about doing something proper about it...

id say something aughta be done...

Posted by StraightDrive on 03-24-2010 02:39 AM:

You have the right to refuse that drop. If he doesnt like it take it back to the club. Hopefully you could settle it like men in the woods. But to me its sounds like a cheap way to get a win on his hound. BTW when all the others withdraw does he go ahead and cut his hound loose there?

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Posted by BWSupplies on 03-24-2010 02:57 AM:

Wow

I don't care who he is, as a guide he can't put you or your hound in danger and I would consider that a dangerous place. I guess if he was your ordinary, held no office hunter, they wouldn't let him guide.

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Posted by cartwright on 03-24-2010 03:09 AM:

The biggest problem with the guide is he is the president of the club, the hunt director and trying to become the master of hounds. So taking it back to club isn't gonna work. When he goes there he drops reguardless if anyone withdraws..

Posted by blackdog1149 on 03-24-2010 03:26 AM:

refuse to drop

he is being very ignorant and endangering the people in cast and the dogs too. sounds like hes trying to get a real easy win for his hound. i would report him to u.k.c.

Posted by william endress on 03-24-2010 04:32 AM:

Rule 8a

Call a time out before you turn loose. Cast has to vote for it. Try that.

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Posted by mauser06 on 03-24-2010 04:54 AM:

part of why i try like heck to guide...id feel terrible if someones hound got hit when i was guiding....i just got a lot of roads compared to most guides around here..and although most are small, fri and sat nites they can have a little bit of traffic...and there is some bigger roads that although are a little ways off, ive had my own hounds cross them regularly...so i try not to guide just for that reason...

hopefully you can figure out a solution...theres no reason for that...re-cut at another drop...come up with a new one...dont guide if thats all ya got...

Posted by Trail_bawler on 03-24-2010 05:01 AM:

There is a rule almost like that in the book...If the dogs are gettin to close to a road or unsafe area you can call a time out and move to a new area....If the guide will not move then it time to see the master of the hounds about the issue...That hunt might be over for that night but I dought it will happen again if it goes that far......

Posted by robertboyle on 03-24-2010 04:02 PM:

unsafe

before your cast even gets their dogs out of their boxes , have them declair the area to be to dangerous for the dogs to hunt , if the guide refuses , take it straight back to the master of hounds. you have the right for a ruling , if the whole cast is in agreement .maybe when this guide gets a reprimand he will be a better guide . or better yet when he becomes master of hounds , he won't be able to guide any more.

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Posted by John D on 03-24-2010 04:09 PM:

Re: unsafe

quote:
Originally posted by robertboyle
before your cast even gets their dogs out of their boxes , have them declair the area to be to dangerous for the dogs to hunt , if the guide refuses , take it straight back to the master of hounds.

Thats what I'd do with one small change. I'd put a question on the card to scratch him for unsportsmanlike behavior. I believe someone trying to get someone's dog killed or get them to withdraw would be considered a bad sport?

I don't believe the MOH can do much without a question on the card, plus putting it that way might get him to change his mind about this hunting spot and avoid the trip to the MOH, and fix it permanently.

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Posted by josh on 03-24-2010 04:15 PM:

Im not sure there is a hard and fast rule on this. I would think you could question it and at the very least be heard by the MOH.

I was once in the situation where a dog in the cast was trailing to a busy 4 lane, just after scoring my tree I had no chice but to cut back in to that dog, or withdraw.

Posted by on 03-24-2010 04:22 PM:

John, your suggestion might work if the guide is a hunting guide but what if he is a non-hunting guide? Can't scratch a non-hunting guide.
I don't know the answer and I'm very glad that in all my hunts, I have never seen this one come up. But I think UKC needs to give us a concrete answer as to how it should be handled.
I have a feeling when it is all said and done, the answer would be you can hunt or withdraw. But I hope UKC has a better answer than that.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 03-24-2010 04:25 PM:

We don't need more rules! Geeze ole petes! The answer to any problems are not more rules. This is the same issue with our government today!

Josh,

I would have withdrawn and in fact I have withdrawn my dogs many times over the years. No hunt is worth putting a hound in danger.

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Posted by thickcoon on 03-24-2010 04:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
John, your suggestion might work if the guide is a hunting guide but what if he is a non-hunting guide? Can't scratch a non-hunting guide.
I don't know the answer and I'm very glad that in all my hunts, I have never seen this one come up. But I think UKC needs to give us a concrete answer as to how it should be handled.
I have a feeling when it is all said and done, the answer would be you can hunt or withdraw. But I hope UKC has a better answer than that.

as it sits right now, can a cast vote on this? Was forced to turn down a minimum maintence road in the middle of nowhere with not a tree in sight, I questioned the guide asking if he had another drop and he BLEW up on me

Posted by Dale Young on 03-24-2010 05:03 PM:

In a later post he says the guy drops his dog there even if the others withdraw. Makes it a much tuffer call. Sounds like the guy just thinks its ok or don't care. The only thing I could suggest would be in a safty issue calling for a vote. We know what one vote is already so that would mean all 3 other handlers would have to be in agreement. ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, for saftey reasons NOT just because they don't like the looks of the hunting spot.

I do agree with Larry about more rules , we have to have the Advisor now to explain the rule book and for me that makes it 2 rule books. I think the biggest change we need is a condenceing of rules back to the basics that can be easily understood and then just get over it if it don't go your way tonight.

Posted by Jeff Eaves on 03-24-2010 05:11 PM:

think it should be voted on . i went to a hunt one night we stoped at intersetion of to fast populated roads asked the judge who was guide to if had to hunt here he said its a good fast place to get coon but u guys can vote an he took us to another spot . talked to them latter guys i was hunting with said 2 dogs have been hit in roads at that club sofar. well i haven't been back since. my dogs want them to die of old age. Jeff

Posted by thickcoon on 03-24-2010 05:18 PM:

its pretty sad when a guy cares more about that "fast coon" and plus points then his dogs life.

Posted by treberta on 03-24-2010 06:25 PM:

I have guided casts a many times and been accused of hunting close to a highway and or dry holeing casts.

My point is several of these people don't realize that the freeway noise carries well over 2 miles around my house and these same spots I guide I can tree 4 or 5 coon in each section on most any given night.

You can't please everyone these days. If youre dog runs over a mile consistently to tree a coon then I don't want it in my cast anyway.

I was at Ashland bluetic days this past weekend and I had a non-hunting guide. He sat in the truck and dropped us right in a small section surrounded by roads. My female stayed in the section and was about to get treed when the other two handlers demanded we call timeout due to their dogs crossing ythe road. I was the judge and i said go ahead and my female got treed 10 seconds after we called timeout and had mr. ricky.

Like I said some hunters want small sectoins, some want big sections, some refuse to me within 2 miles aof a freeway. It's just the luck of the draw much like it is in the biger hunts.

You draw out and hunt where the guide takes you, if youre really that concerned for youre dogs life then don't cut it. I myself like big sections where dogs can get split up but I can't whine when I'm turned in a little 10 acre patch woods. It's my chioce to cut loose.

Posted by Rip on 03-24-2010 07:58 PM:

If the cast votes to hunt there you are just SOL and have to withdraw.

You have no recourse in this situation.

If the majority says it's not safe, then you have to find somewhere else to hunt.

That's all you can do.

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Posted by Lakeland Kennel on 03-24-2010 08:52 PM:

Jim Ridge had Houdini killed because a guide had the cast turn loose with-in a quarter mile of a interstate in the semi-finals of the UKC World Hunt one year. Jim said he just had a few seconds to make up his mind on whether to turn loose or not. Houdini could have had a huge impact on the English breed.

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Posted by cartwright on 03-24-2010 09:57 PM:

It just isn't right and I don't care who you are...

This spot is with feet and yards... As soon as I get a chance I will take some pictures and post them and let you be the judge...

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