UKC Forums - What Your Opinion On This Call

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Posted by Herbie Manns on 08-21-2015 04:38 AM:

What Your Opinion On This Call

Went to a hunt Saturday night had a female and 3 male in the cast 30 min in the hunt we could tell that my male was hanging around the female she looked swollen even judge said she didn't look right so the judge started to watch him turn them loose they ended up treed had a coon both dogs other dogs split release again dog running down a lane judge still watching my dog he raised he's head judge scratched him I ask for a ? On the card called time out had to handel our dog's walked up hill 20 yards female standing there looked at my gramin my dog was a 125 yard's hunt was over Master of hound he refused to look at her he said my hunt was over but n my opinion my ? On the card keeps it a live she should have been scratched for been in heat or she had and infection either way she should have been scratched Master hound refused WHAT YOUR OPINION

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Posted by Surveyor on 08-21-2015 12:32 PM:

Herbie
Like most situations, I'd have to have been there and saw just what took place before I could form an opinion of just what went on and if it was bad enough to warrant actually scratching anybody. But if it was causing enough problems to warrant a scratch, I'd say if 2 of the 3 males were paying her no mind but 1 was really bothering her then the male would be scratched. If 2 of the males were bothering her then it'd be pretty obvious the female was the one that needed scratched. I know I took my Abbie female to a RQE one night, after she went out of heat. 2 males locked on to her right out of the truck and chased her around the truck-quickest $30 I ever lost in a hunt! lol

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Posted by Herbie Manns on 08-21-2015 04:16 PM:

hunt

That wasn't my ? Mike I put a ? On the card I wanted the Master hound to look at her judge said she didn't look right but sent she wasn't bleeding he wouldn't scratch her Master hound refused to look at her he said my hunt was over the card was handed in if that true why put a ? On the card if time up Link never try to mount her just run beside got scratched and hr and half in to the hunt the other two more worry about getting slick treed then a female

Posted by Surveyor on 08-21-2015 04:35 PM:

If there was a ? on the card then there should have been a cast vote right? Was there, and if so how did it go? I really don't think a MOH could or should make a ruling in that situation based on how the female looked-I think it would depend on how it was affecting dogs in the cast and he wasn't there to know that. I know that would be my question to the cast members if that ? came back to me. I doubt I'd be willing to look at the female either as I don't see how I could determine if she was interfering with the other dogs in the cast by just looking at her. Though I'd like to hear others thoughts on the matter as well.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 08-21-2015 08:44 PM:

Herbie, the MOH can't make a decision based on his opinion of what the female looks like. Instead the MOH's decision should be based on what the rules say to do for the scenario that took place in the woods. Rule 6(d).

In other words, a female could actually be in full blown heat and if it attracts no other dogs in the cast then no dog should be scratched.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 08-21-2015 08:47 PM:

Mike, you're logic is spot on. No reason for you to look at the female because it should have no bearing on your decision as the MOH. Your decision should be based on the scenario they had.

Posted by Mark V. on 08-22-2015 05:51 AM:

BUT ! If a ? is put on the card with 10 min. left to hunt on a scatchable affence should time have been called??

Posted by john Duemmer on 08-22-2015 01:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark V.
BUT ! If a ? is put on the card with 10 min. left to hunt on a scatchable affence should time have been called??

Yes

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Posted by River Birch Run on 08-22-2015 03:46 PM:

If there was no vote there was no ? to be heard.

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Posted by msinc on 08-22-2015 04:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Mark V.
BUT ! If a ? is put on the card with 10 min. left to hunt on a scatchable affence should time have been called??

Someone else answered "yes"

Rule 7 {A thru F} regarding calling time out is pretty clear...where is this other rule that says you call time out to discuss an issue?????

Posted by Night Shift on 08-22-2015 04:21 PM:

I took my female to an RQE. She was due to have pups was about three weeks along. Drew three males my female trees the other three back her one male pushed her off the tree trying to ride her. It was seen by all three I took minus we scratched the male dog. Guy question it I walked my female in front of the other two to show the guy it wasn't her. He still throws a fit my judge takes us back to club. Master of hounds asked to look at my female I get her out and show him he said she's not in heat. I ended up winning cast but if this is the case why would master of hounds ask to see my dog. This was at Greencastle RQE two years ago.

Posted by GA DAWG on 08-22-2015 05:52 PM:

I dont understand the question.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-22-2015 06:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Someone else answered "yes"

Rule 7 {A thru F} regarding calling time out is pretty clear...where is this other rule that says you call time out to discuss an issue?????

Anytime a :? is placed on the card that involves a scratch, timeout is called and the cast returns to the club for a ruleing by the MOHs.

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Posted by msinc on 08-22-2015 06:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Anytime a :? is placed on the card that involves a scratch, timeout is called and the cast returns to the club for a ruleing by the MOHs.

Please tell us where it says to call time out...or which rule or page you are getting this from. I get when a scratch involves a question you go back to the MOH, but I see nothing saying to call time out.

Posted by msinc on 08-22-2015 07:03 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Night Shift
I took my female to an RQE. She was due to have pups was about three weeks along. Drew three males my female trees the other three back her one male pushed her off the tree trying to ride her. It was seen by all three I took minus we scratched the male dog. Guy question it I walked my female in front of the other two to show the guy it wasn't her. He still throws a fit my judge takes us back to club. Master of hounds asked to look at my female I get her out and show him he said she's not in heat. I ended up winning cast but if this is the case why would master of hounds ask to see my dog. This was at Greencastle RQE two years ago.

She should not have been minused for leaving the tree, it sounds like your female was interfered with or "bothered" is the word UKC likes to use.
The reason I don't look at females to see if they are in heat when this is brought to me is because a female can show no open, apparent signs of being in heat yet still attract every male in the cast. If three males are "bothering" a female but she does not appear or look like she's in heat do you want the three males scratched??? It's not her, it's the rest of the world???
I think the bottom line in these cases is that actions speak louder than words. If only one male is bothering her and the other two are not then he gets the hammer.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 08-23-2015 02:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Please tell us where it says to call time out...or which rule or page you are getting this from. I get when a scratch involves a question you go back to the MOH, but I see nothing saying to call time out.

the time out is a no brainer. How can you return to the MOH without having time out called? Sometimes in this coon hunting world, common sense goes a long way.

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Posted by Robert Johnson on 08-23-2015 02:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by msinc
Please tell us where it says to call time out...or which rule or page you are getting this from. I get when a scratch involves a question you go back to the MOH, but I see nothing saying to call time out.

the time out is a no brainer. How can you return to the MOH without having time out called? Sometimes in this coon hunting world, common sense goes a long way.

Posted by JiM on 08-23-2015 02:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
the time out is a no brainer. How can you return to the MOH without having time out called? Sometimes in this coon hunting world, common sense goes a long way.

You may be right but I don't agree that time has to be called anytime a scratch question is in the card. First of all, returning to the MOH immediately isn't mandatory, you only go back if there is enough time to do so and still complete the hunt. Calling time out right then requires that every other dog in the cast is stopped dead in there tracks, their strike points deleted and any coon they are about to tree is wasted just because someone puts a scratch question on the card, no matter how stupid that question might be. If I'm judging, we call time and go back when there is a break in the action where timeout does not screw the other dogs in the cast. I'll do otherwise when some one from UKC tells me to.

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Posted by msinc on 08-23-2015 03:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
the time out is a no brainer. How can you return to the MOH without having time out called? Sometimes in this coon hunting world, common sense goes a long way.

You are so sure you are right that you posted it twice!!!! Go back and read the very first post...I would have scratched the whole cast. They called time out and then "handled the dogs"...it don't work that way. He stated his dog was 125 yards out, you cant call time out until AFTER all the dogs are handled and scored.

Common sense can go along way...that is if you have it.

Posted by dawgg03 on 08-23-2015 03:05 PM:

This is why people don't attend more hunts. Can't agree on the right call if one dog is bugging another female all night other two males hunting he's gone there's your comon sence And your not looking at my female. Your not a vet or do you have the ability to run test to she if she coming in or just went out.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-23-2015 04:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You may be right but I don't agree that time has to be called anytime a scratch question is in the card. First of all, returning to the MOH immediately isn't mandatory, you only go back if there is enough time to do so and still complete the hunt. Calling time out right then requires that every other dog in the cast is stopped dead in there tracks, their strike points deleted and any coon they are about to tree is wasted just because someone puts a scratch question on the card, no matter how stupid that question might be. If I'm judging, we call time and go back when there is a break in the action where timeout does not screw the other dogs in the cast. I'll do otherwise when some one from UKC tells me to.

Jim if time isnt called immediatly and the scratch is later determined to have been wrong how could the MOHs remedy the situation? The dog hasnt had the opportunity to hunt his 120. You may as well just not allow a scratch to be questioned because there would be no remedy.

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Posted by Herbie Manns on 08-23-2015 06:02 PM:

hunt

? Was why can't a Master hound go out and look for himself my dog never stop her from hunting just followed her around for 20 min I think she had a infection the 4 guy in the cast got scratch for shinning his treed before we got back a young man didn't no the rules 10 min later I got scratch the judge never came back to the club they treed together no trouble other dogs where split score tree only coon seen

Posted by msinc on 08-23-2015 06:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
You may be right but I don't agree that time has to be called anytime a scratch question is in the card. First of all, returning to the MOH immediately isn't mandatory, you only go back if there is enough time to do so and still complete the hunt. Calling time out right then requires that every other dog in the cast is stopped dead in there tracks, their strike points deleted and any coon they are about to tree is wasted just because someone puts a scratch question on the card, no matter how stupid that question might be. If I'm judging, we call time and go back when there is a break in the action where timeout does not screw the other dogs in the cast. I'll do otherwise when some one from UKC tells me to.

If....if you could call dogs off a track and simply "delete" their strike points....every cast would do that every time a track started to sound bad. If dogs are trailing and you call them back strike points must be minus.

I know it is confusing...I have long contended that time outs are the most miss used, misunderstood, and "cheated with" rules on the card.

Posted by JiM on 08-23-2015 09:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Jim if time isnt called immediatly and the scratch is later determined to have been wrong how could the MOHs remedy the situation? The dog hasnt had the opportunity to hunt his 120. You may as well just not allow a scratch to be questioned because there would be no remedy.

Well, I don't agree John because UKC recently stated in the Advisor column that judges are not required to take a question back immediately in every situation. That tells me UKC places more emphasis on what would be fair to the dogs that may be struck and working that on the guy with the scratch question. Requiring the cast to call time and delete everything is less fair to the dogs that are working than it would be to the handler with the question. I may be wrong but I think you are flat wrong on this one.

Posted by JiM on 08-23-2015 09:26 PM:

Re: hunt

quote:
Originally posted by Herbie Manns
? Was why can't a Master hound go out and look for himself my dog never stop her from hunting just followed her around for 20 min I think she had a infection the 4 guy in the cast got scratch for shinning his treed before we got back a young man didn't no the rules 10 min later I got scratch the judge never came back to the club they treed together no trouble other dogs where split score tree only coon seen

Herb, Allen answered that in this thread. The MOH does not go out and look because there is nothing for him to see. They can't say if a dog is in heat or not and that is why the rule refers to how the dog acts, not how it looks.

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