UKC Forums - Poll: Two dog Casts

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 04-08-2008 04:14 PM:

Poll: Two dog Casts

I have not stirred the pot for a little while, and it's time for some good conversation....

This has bothered me for a while, and while I'm not one to go jumping off the end of the pier just because my buddy jumps off.....some times things just make too much sense to ignore...

UKC is the only registry, major or minor, that allows a two dog cast to continue to hunt without a third voting cast member. To me, that is just about the worst thing that can happen in a cast.

The judge in that cast has an unrecoverable position of power over the outcome of that cast. A question on the card concerning "judgment" decision (i.e. is that dog moving while declared treed) are simply the decision of the judge. A one to one vote, go back to the MOH, and the MOH is going to tell you that he was not there, and he's going to have to go with what the judge decided.

Case in point, five dogs entered, a three dog cast and a two dog cast..... Dogs hunt for 28 minutes and are tied at the end of the first 28 minutes with 575 plus. (yes, they had a coon treeing contest!). Second drop and the dogs are cut loose. Dog A is struck as soon as they hit the timber and treed immediately for 125. It is obvious that the dog is not treeing, and the hunting judge minuses the dog 125 but re-trees it within seconds of minusing the dog. Dog B is struck, but is considerably deeper, and continues to run the track. Handler of Dog B asks if Dog A is moving. Judge denies that dog is moving. Five is up on Dog A's tree and they start to move in. Dog B is declared treed, but is more than a half mile from the truck.

After walking a half mile, they finally catch up to dog A and Dog B...both on the same tree. Now dog A was struck, treed, minused, and re-treed in the first 30 seconds of the second drop...and covered a half mile in that time frame. By my math, that's averaging 60 mile an hour...all while running a track through the timber, and treeing twice...not to mention that the dog had to be stationary for 5 minutes....making the average speed of Dog A about 75 miles an hour on this track.

Handler of Dog B repeatedly states that Dog A is moving, and the judge/handler of Dog A denies it. They vote...2 to 2....question the call....

Who's gonna win this question at the MOH table?

I think it's time for UKC to do the right thing and realize that while we have honor rules, honor in today's society is a rare commodity...we need three voting members on every cast!

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Posted by jculler8 on 04-08-2008 04:21 PM:

Heck, if the club can have the members there to put on a hunt and there's only 5 dogs entered, it should be mandatory that 2 non-hunting judges be assigned or the hunt is cancelled and entry fees are refunded. Very simple. Clubs and UKC are letting people get away with this type of behavior because members are too lazy to go out and walk along for 2 hours.

How bout we have an "honor" system where we honor our sport and work to make it better instead of worse.

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Posted by ghostcoon on 04-08-2008 04:26 PM:

good post, Iv never been in a situation like this but i could see where there could defiantely be some problems.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 04-08-2008 04:31 PM:

What's really bad is if there is a coon in the tree, dog B takes a minus on a coon that it treed!

I'm not sure if the drawing of casts, the number of hunting judges vs. non-hunting judges is a rule, that is changeable by the breed associations, or if it's a policy that is set by UKC.

If it's a rule, then I'll be sure and submit it to the Walker Association for consideration. If I'm not mistaken, this is a rule change year....

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Posted by John D on 04-08-2008 04:45 PM:

Its a good point. I've been on several 2 dog casts and I guess I was always lucky that me and the other guy both took what we had coming and got along fine.

One solution might be that if you get down to a 2 dog cast and you don't trust the judge or the other handler, or feel like there might be problems, then you need to go back to the club and get a nonhunting judge. Easier said, than done, I know.

Its not just the judge that has control. No tree is going to get plussed or minused, or time called if the other handler doesn't want it to.

Another thing is that the MOH is not obligated to always go with the judge. If a 2 dog cast comes in and there seems to have been sportsmanship problems and neither one seems capable of scoring things right, then as a MOH, I'd be tempted to throw out the card. Yes, I'd be within the rules to do that.

That might teach both of them a lesson that they better score it right or nobody is going to gain anything. Maybe next weekend they'll shape up...or stay home.

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Posted by on 04-08-2008 04:49 PM:

If I draw a two dog cast, I can guarentee there will be a non-hunting judge assigned because if the club won't give us one, then I will withdraw and now they are required to put one on.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 04-08-2008 04:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by John D
Its a good point. I've been on several 2 dog casts and I guess I was always lucky that me and the other guy both took what we had coming and got along fine.

One solution might be that if you get down to a 2 dog cast and you don't trust the judge or the other handler, or feel like there might be problems, then you need to go back to the club and get a nonhunting judge. Easier said, than done, I know.

Its not just the judge that has control. No tree is going to get plussed or minused, or time called if the other handler doesn't want it to.

Another thing is that the MOH is not obligated to always go with the judge. If a 2 dog cast comes in and there seems to have been sportsmanship problems and neither one seems capable of scoring things right, then as a MOH, I'd be tempted to throw out the card. Yes, I'd be within the rules to do that.

That might teach both of them a lesson that they better score it right or nobody is going to gain anything. Maybe next weekend they'll shape up...or stay home.

John,

Your approach is certainly a reasonable one, but my point is, and has always been....why put a couple of guys in that situation?

Like I said, there is not one other registry that will even entertain the idea. While I understand that maybe a simple majority of casts would not have a problem, the issue is one of fairness to all....how many "bad" casts does it take to be a "bad" idea?

Know this, that this was DRAWN as a two dog cast.... It did not start as a three or four dog cast, it was drawn as a two dog cast....

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Posted by John D on 04-08-2008 07:01 PM:

You're exactly right, a 2 dog cast is more likely to have problems.

I don't even like hunting on them when everything goes right.

Posted by Bill(Chew) on 04-08-2008 07:26 PM:

I've had the same thing happen on a four dog cast. The judge was death in one ear and could not coarse the dogs (he had begged the moh not to make him judge).

I see the potential for abuse but I've been on several 2 dog cast and never had a problem. On second thought I got the worst shafting I've ever had on a hunt while on a two dog cast!

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Posted by justin tumbleso on 04-08-2008 09:06 PM:

Been on one two dog UKC cast and the other handler went blind and wouldn't score my coon. After the shine time as we walked away he final saw it out in the open. Needless to say we didn't score any coon that night. Next time I'll ask for a non-hunting judge.

Justin

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 04-09-2008 02:38 PM:

Funny,

Only 10% of the folks that have read this post have voted....

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Posted by countryfeller on 04-09-2008 04:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
Funny,

Only 10% of the folks that have read this post have voted....

It's irrelevant anyway. It's like saying, can triple H use a chair to bash Big show over the head. It's fake and fixed to begin with. LOL LOL LOL

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 04-09-2008 04:50 PM:

It is an interesting topic. And I would say it's rule situation and not a policy situation as Rule 10 deals with similar situations. So feel free to submit to your Association as this is a rule change year.

The thing that I keep coming back to in this situation is a 4 dog cast is no different than a 2 dog cast. You still have situations where a majority decision is not reached. Why not require a 5th member of a cast in 4 dog casts based on that theory? If you have a two to two vote on a judgement call in a four dog cast, who is the MOH going to go with most of the time? Yes, the hunting judge. Not obligated to as JohnD pointed out but look at it this way. If the club and MOH work to make sure their best rule people and most honest individuals are carrying each scorecard, it is hard not to put stock in their judgement. You selected them because they are the most capable people there.

What about the three dog situation with two being buddies and one stranger. That's not being addressed and seems like the worst scenario of all? At least in a two dog cast your's is 50% of the opinion of what happened?

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Posted by MikeO on 04-09-2008 05:25 PM:

judge

i hadnt been in a hunt in yrs.i tried one sat nite my luck i drew out with a judge handler that was the biggest cheater ive ever seen.we didnt get into any coons but if we would have it wouldve been a real bad situation.i can take getting beat fair but i cant take being cheated.a none hunting judge is the best way to fix the problem.

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Posted by Maniac on 04-09-2008 06:03 PM:

Re: judge

quote:
Originally posted by MikeO
i hadnt been in a hunt in yrs.i tried one sat nite my luck i drew out with a judge handler that was the biggest cheater ive ever seen.we didnt get into any coons but if we would have it wouldve been a real bad situation.i can take getting beat fair but i cant take being cheated.a none hunting judge is the best way to fix the problem.

i always thought a none hunting judge was the way to go . but some will scew you just like a hunting judge.all it take is to have a buddy in the cast that are freinds with the judge . or a none hunting judge that dont like some one .when im a MOH i trie to pick some that i know that know the rules real well.i was the MOH at silver lakes hunt in march. i had question come back. on one of the cast about one tree . and the guy that questin it. got over rule by three cast members. the guy that question said looks like there was a hole in the tree. and three said there wasnt. so you go with the three cast members . that is the way the rules state.you half to show a recfuse. and not say i think its a hole. most people dont know the rules in these hunts is and thats why they always have problems. like i said you can get screw with a hunting judge or a none hunting judge. thats my opion.

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Posted by blueticker on 04-09-2008 06:08 PM:

On a two dog cast I had -125 then +225. Next coon with just a few minutes left in hunting time I had +225. Coon was seen by the other hunter in the next tree over. A good size limb crossing right to the limb the coon was setting on. The MOH tossed out the last score. I told him he should toss out the hole card because all he was doing was selecting a cast winner and not a decision on what was correct.

Drew out on a three dog cast with two guys from Ok. They came together and hunted together nightly. Both were straight up guys and we had a great hunt.

Folks, we are only coon hunting and there is one or two hunts every week. Competition will bring out the worst or the best in people. You can either sell your reputaion for a $15 entry fee or appreciate the honest reputation other hunters have of you. If you have to cheat to win it certainly shows me lots about the hound your leading. Remember this, it takes a life time to get a good reputation and only seconds to loose it.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 04-09-2008 06:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by todd kellam
It is an interesting topic. And I would say it's rule situation and not a policy situation as Rule 10 deals with similar situations. So feel free to submit to your Association as this is a rule change year.

The thing that I keep coming back to in this situation is a 4 dog cast is no different than a 2 dog cast. You still have situations where a majority decision is not reached. Why not require a 5th member of a cast in 4 dog casts based on that theory? If you have a two to two vote on a judgement call in a four dog cast, who is the MOH going to go with most of the time? Yes, the hunting judge. Not obligated to as JohnD pointed out but look at it this way. If the club and MOH work to make sure their best rule people and most honest individuals are carrying each scorecard, it is hard not to put stock in their judgement. You selected them because they are the most capable people there.

What about the three dog situation with two being buddies and one stranger. That's not being addressed and seems like the worst scenario of all? At least in a two dog cast your's is 50% of the opinion of what happened?

Todd,

Thanks for weighing in.....

I do undertand that a four dog cast could certainly be split by a 2:2 vote....but your 50% less likely to get that split vote in a four dog cast than a two dog cast.... So by my way of thinking, if you can eliminate a potential problem half the time.....then you are obligated to take action.

With only two people voting, the vote is either unanimous, or split....with more than two voting you have more options of how the vote could land, more than two sets of eyes, ears, and more than to opinions....

I'll be sure and submit something to the Walker Association come Autumn Oaks time!

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Posted by on 04-09-2008 06:13 PM:

Todd, your comment about a 4 dog cast or a three dog cast being as bad as a 2 dog has one glaring hole in it. On a 3 or 4 dog cast, it takes two cheaters to screw you. On a 2 dog, it just takes one person to ruin the hunt beyond anything a MOH can fix. That one hander can refuse to plus every single tree, he can keep the cast from calling timeout no matter what the situation is. It is far more likely than one person will cheat than it is to have two handlers working together.

The other point that should be made is that every 2 dog cast can be required to hunt under a non-hunting judge simply by one cast member withdrawing. Should I have to withdraw my dog in order to insure fair judgeing?

Posted by SCBluetickGirl on 04-09-2008 06:20 PM:

Gosh, you're awful fond of numbers Joe

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 04-09-2008 06:38 PM:

Joe, are you going to propose this for all casts that get down to two dogs at some point or only for those that start out as two dog casts? You are looking at potentially a lot of stand by guys at the club that are willing to wait to help out. Most clubs won't have that luxury.

Now, one more thing to consider, just like with a non-hunting judge, this third person needs to come from somewhere. If you are voting yes on this, just be sure that you are one of those willing to volunteer to help your club out. No doubt it would be a benefit, just make sure your local club can handle it or you may have one less local club to hunt out of.

I'm not taking a position, just trying to be sure people consider all sides.

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 04-09-2008 06:43 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Todd, your comment about a 4 dog cast or a three dog cast being as bad as a 2 dog has one glaring hole in it. On a 3 or 4 dog cast, it takes two cheaters to screw you. On a 2 dog, it just takes one person to ruin the hunt beyond anything a MOH can fix. That one hander can refuse to plus every single tree, he can keep the cast from calling timeout no matter what the situation is. It is far more likely than one person will cheat than it is to have two handlers working together.

Yeah, but if you're guarding against the fact that one out of every two people is a cheater, then that means two out of every four is. Shoot, if you only have one cheater to worry about, don't accept their entry and rock on.

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Posted by larrypoe on 04-09-2008 06:58 PM:

I hate 2 dog casts. No matter how well your dog preforms the worst the other dog can do is 2nd on everything by just me tooing all night. 1 bad call or 1 mistake by your dog and your about done.

3 dog casts are about as bad for a different reason. IF 2 handlers decide to work togather, theres not much you can do even if your carrying the card. Nothing if your not.

Did the non hunting judge thing for years. A bad judge in those and theres not a thing you can do but chalk it up.

At least in a 4 dog cast the chances of drawing 3 dishonest handlers is a little harder.

I dont guess theres a perfect way of doing any of it. But I think Joe makes a good case.

Change the rule so that a cast with 2 dogs or less have to have a non hunting judge, and a cast that starts out with 3 or more has to keep 3 voting members like they do in PKC. I dont think its too much to ask for a cast member to keep hunting for the remainder of 2 hours when there dog is done.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 04-09-2008 07:51 PM:

Kinda liked Jim's proposal two years ago myself. Stay with the cast regardless unless released by judge or majority????

Posted by Maniac on 04-09-2008 07:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Kinda liked Jim's proposal two years ago myself. Stay with the cast regardless unless released by judge or majority????

GOOD POINT ALLEN

Posted by on 04-09-2008 08:05 PM:

Al, did you notice what the breed associations thought iof that one? Not one of them voted in favor. I get about as much consideration from them as I get from the women on this board.....

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