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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Born a Coon Dog (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928540834)
Born a Coon Dog
When I first read a few post on this forum how some coon hunters said some of their pups when started hunting were straight coon dogs…for me that was hard to believe…I won’t say I didn’t believe it but over time others were posting the same results with their coon hound pups…
Once I read on here where more pups were natural and straight on coon I then realized a theory of mine I have about epigenetics and dogs…I know research money won’t go towards coonhound research but based on many other research articles it makes a lot of sense…
I am sure there are other reasons…but I been wanting to put this out there for a long while…many don’t believe but there are some that do…
Hopefully we can get a good discussion going…
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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...
Pups have for sure changed.. pups today for whatever reason don’t run trash like pups of the past. A prime example I have 3 pups currently all from different bloodlines. 1 is a semen pup from some old bloodline. The other 2 have nothing to do with fast game whatsoever... the semen pup runs the first thing he smells and will normally run at least one deer every time out. He’s the first pup I’ve had like this in years....when I first started going to the Super Stakes you would have several deer races in about every cast.. today you rarely ever have a deer race in a cast... now babbling that’s a different story in pups today 😂
I have an old semen pup also, experiencing the same thing... he's proving to be a good coon dog... but also drawn to run trash.... something I haven't seen for a while in younger dogs.
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Seeking Soli Deo Gloria through the hounds.
Houndsound and JB Cobb…
I reckon the questions we need answers to are…
Why does the old blooded pups are born to run most game?
Why are today’s pups born to hunt coon?
We can probably come up with some theories as to why and probably come up with some good answers…
Reading articles on Epigenetic experiments and we can see how it could be happening…
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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...
Reuben I’m not sure ...... it’s puzzling to reflect back on changes in hounds and breeding.. I’m 50 years old and started coon hunting with my Dad at the age of 5. I’ve owned hounds my whole life. In the past we didn’t expect to much from a pup..usually hauled them around till they were 2 or 3 before they started treeing coons. They ran junk and normally when they decided to stop they just stopped running fast game. When they treed they always had the game they were after.. these pups today will make more slicks in a night than I made in a season. I think that was one benefit to running fast game.. they learned how to run a track the right direction picking their heads up and really move a track.Now some of these pups tree coons 3-4 months old not years... but they struggle with tracks and pull up short rather than drifting out and picking it back up... fast game learns them how to do this.
quote:Slick treeing would never have been a big problem if breeders had been breeding for accuracy instead of slobber-slinging, bug-eyed, fang baring. toenail digging dogs that could be heard for 3 miles. We put way too much emphasis on style and not enough on having a coon. Even today, I see on this forum folks wanting to know who has the loudest stud dog in America. Or the hardest tree dog in America.
Originally posted by JB Cobb
Reuben I’m not sure ...... it’s puzzling to reflect back on changes in hounds and breeding.. I’m 50 years old and started coon hunting with my Dad at the age of 5. I’ve owned hounds my whole life. In the past we didn’t expect to much from a pup..usually hauled them around till they were 2 or 3 before they started treeing coons. They ran junk and normally when they decided to stop they just stopped running fast game. When they treed they always had the game they were after.. these pups today will make more slicks in a night than I made in a season. I think that was one benefit to running fast game.. they learned how to run a track the right direction picking their heads up and really move a track.Now some of these pups tree coons 3-4 months old not years... but they struggle with tracks and pull up short rather than drifting out and picking it back up... fast game learns them how to do this.
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Donald Bergeron
Shadinc has hit the nail on the head!
I believe i have some experience in this field, because i feel we have as old of Treeing Walker blood as there is up close.
Tree Blaster,Roetens Warrior, Lipper etc......
Most come loving to run a track, treeing comes later.
The focus for years was the show at the tree, treeing is an "emotion" and when you breed hounds with high emotion for over 30 yrs you get just that! Hounds that are highly excitable at just the smell of sent, hounds that babble, hounds that lock down whether there is anything there or not.
I also realize its terrible to have one that won't tree 
Balance in breeding!
Fur in the tree is what counts for us.
I have 2 six month old pups(old blood) right now that absolutely love lighting up some deer on my property, they come back proud, learning to push track will break them soon, Garmin makes it easy.
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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.
"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"
Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.
Reuben great topic
Let me throw a few pitches over yall's base...
Just maybe your experience doesn't line up with everyone else's ?
I just so happen to have a few OLD blood dogs here in my kennel. 4 to be exact .
Before I go any further let me set the record straight , i have wayyyyyyyyy more trash ( fast & slow and those that go in a hole) here in my country to run than a coon. Very thin coon population and can prove it LOL
One is a female and she is 1 of 2 of the straightest coondogs i have ever owned. When i say all coon from a 8 week old pup thats exactly what i mean . Shes currently 6. I have just been waiting for the night she will trash and hasnt yet . Yes she still has time to and she possibly will but it hasnt happened yet ! Ironically I have heard from the owner of her sire (sire been dead 25+ years now) that he was the ONLY straight born coondog he has ever owned. 100% COON ONLY. Many know him he's a well known breeder and hunting 7-8 generations back of his line of dogs still today.
So , did this female take after her sire of 25 yrs ago and is naturally straight ? She's old blood gentlemen.
Other example is my male ... old blood semen PUP also . 3 yr old . Straight as the female mentioned above from a 8 week old pup . He still has alot of life left to run or tree some junk but again hasnt yet or even gave me a reason to think he will . I'll say this also ... I dont trust any dog and esp mine even though i may have great confidence in them with certain departments .
Maybe i've just gotten lucky ? who knows ? but my experience with old blood doesn't line up with yall's blanketed answer that all old blooded pups are all trashy.
and btw , the other two old blooded semen pups dont know anything yet so will find out about them sooner than later .
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Toad Hill not in any way saying these old blooded dogs are trashy, what i am saying is they are track driven
I don't want to get into my hunting is worse then yours, but i bet these N. Georgia mtns are equal, very low coon population, steep etc...
We have allot more deer than coon, so if a pup wants to learn to run something that may be where they start, but it in know way means they will not be a straight cooner. i just like the drive they have to get after something on their own.
Most of this old blood is gentle and easy to train, take them to the woods, show them what you want to run, let them go.
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Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.
"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"
Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.
Old blood
I hunted Walkers around 40 years ago that was plenty on the slick treeing side as well so that blanket statement didn't work for a large amount of what I hunted with.
Maybe sometimes you just need to get out and hunt with other stuff.
I also believe slick treeing is much more prone to the handler and the way they operate. Not totally but very impressionable.
Either I have taken this post wrong or others have. I didn't take it to mean that all old blood dogs were trashy. I thought it was saying there is a lot less trash trouble now and more slick treeing. The worst slick treer I ever hunted was an English bluetick in the early 60"s. They just weren't as common as they are now. And Pam, I don't know how you can make a naturally accurate pup into a slick treer. If he only trees when he has a coon you can't over praise him when he slick trees if he doesn't.
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Donald Bergeron
quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
Either I have taken this post wrong or others have. I didn't take it to mean that all old blood dogs were trashy. I thought it was saying there is a lot less trash trouble now and more slick treeing. The worst slick treer I ever hunted was an English bluetick in the early 60"s. They just weren't as common as they are now. And Pam, I don't know how you can make a naturally accurate pup into a slick treer. If he only trees when he has a coon you can't over praise him when he slick trees if he doesn't.
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Tom Wood
Would things be different you think if UKC went back to 100 for 1st tree? Obviously it would take awhile. Took awhile for the tracking ability to dwindle away too.
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Dan
You're going to have slick treeing as long as competition hunting is determining what a coon dog is and there's no way to penalize a dog for slick treeing. I hunted in a UKC hunt in February with a man who usually hunts PKC. He had a 19 month old female he told me he paid $3000 for. She treed 8 times in 2 hours and we never saw a coon. It seems if a dog leaves in a hard run and trees hard and loud, that makes him valuable.
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Donald Bergeron
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shadinc
[B]You're going to have slick treeing as long as competition hunting is determining what a coon dog is
"Let's not go defineing a "competition" dog as a coon dog......but their is some coon dogs in competition hunts
, just not very many.
Unfortunately a "competition" dog is worth more than a coon dog...
Jmo
quote:
Originally posted by shadinc
You're going to have slick treeing as long as competition hunting is determining what a coon dog is and there's no way to penalize a dog for slick treeing. I hunted in a UKC hunt in February with a man who usually hunts PKC. He had a 19 month old female he told me he paid $3000 for. She treed 8 times in 2 hours and we never saw a coon. It seems if a dog leaves in a hard run and trees hard and loud, that makes him valuable.
quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Houndsound and JB Cobb…
I reckon the questions we need answers to are…
Why does the old blooded pups are born to run most game?
Why are today’s pups born to hunt coon?
We can probably come up with some theories as to why and probably come up with some good answers…
Reading articles on Epigenetic experiments and we can see how it could be happening…
quote:
Originally posted by Tyger River
I need to study some on this "epigenetics". It might explain some of the things I "think" I have experienced about "learned" traits being passed on to offspring. Normal genetics says that's not possible, but some of the things I've witnessed make me wonder.
__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...
quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
Shadinc has hit the nail on the head!
I believe i have some experience in this field, because i feel we have as old of Treeing Walker blood as there is up close.
Tree Blaster,Roetens Warrior, Lipper etc......
Most come loving to run a track, treeing comes later.
The focus for years was the show at the tree, treeing is an "emotion" and when you breed hounds with high emotion for over 30 yrs you get just that! Hounds that are highly excitable at just the smell of sent, hounds that babble, hounds that lock down whether there is anything there or not.
I also realize its terrible to have one that won't tree
Balance in breeding!
Fur in the tree is what counts for us.
I have 2 six month old pups(old blood) right now that absolutely love lighting up some deer on my property, they come back proud, learning to push track
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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses
All i know is scent excites a hound, they like to trail game, i could make mine (and some do) bear dogs, lion dogs, bobcat dogs, some of the Yadkin dogs make squirrel dogs. It is generally what we teach them to go after.
I have a friend that switches his according to the season and they are nice coon,bear, bobcat dogs.
I can take Hardwood Saul in the daytime and he will go after any game we shoot at, does not matter. Drop him at night he is a straight cooner and i might add a good one.
Emotions or Brains is what i see is the difference in breeding.
Along with Balanced Genetics (not swung to far one way)
I have made allot of mistakes with hounds in the past, set some back, but the good ones are hard to mess up
__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.
"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"
Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.
quote:
Originally posted by CONRAD FRYAR
All i know is scent excites a hound, they like to trail game, i could make mine (and some do) bear dogs, lion dogs, bobcat dogs, some of the Yadkin dogs make squirrel dogs. It is generally what we teach them to go after.
I have a friend that switches his according to the season and they are nice coon,bear, bobcat dogs.
I can take Hardwood Saul in the daytime and he will go after any game we shoot at, does not matter. Drop him at night he is a straight cooner and i might add a good one.
Emotions or Brains is what i see is the difference in breeding.
Along with Balanced Genetics (not swung to far one way)
I have made allot of mistakes with hounds in the past, set some back, but the good ones are hard to mess up
__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...
quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Here are some possibilities based on what I have read…
If the sire was hunting coon before breeding the female or even shocked off unwanted game it could affect the the pups on how they react to the sires previous experiences…hunting coon is pleasurable…shocked off off game would be a negative experience…so it is possible the pups react positively towards coon scent and negatively towards off game…
Same thing with the dam except include during gestation as well…
These are my theories and I am sure there is more to it than that…but something to think about…
In my family my father could draw and paint…he played most any instrument but loved the guitar…no one plays music of the 9 children but 5 can draw and paint…that is probably genetic…
Epigenetics is something in the environment that caused a gene or genes to turn on or turn off because of the environment change at a specific time…
The environment could be any type…so we can create positive environments at critical times in trying to get positive results…or negative if that is what we want…because it is theoretical we can do this in hopes of getting the results we want…
Question
quote:
Originally posted by Reuben
Emotions and brains…I agree
The dogs smells a track and gets excited…that is an emotion tied to the nose and brain…the brain reacts according to genetics and training which includes conditional training which indirectly is a form of Epigenetics…at least that is my logical explanation…
When we have the right genetics and we raise the puppies
In a way to enhance the genetics then the pups will perform at a higher level…
An example…if we are training or exposing the pups to find by using food treats as the find objects…
We can do it in two ways…one is positive and the other a negative…
Negative…feed the pups first and then encourage them to find hidden treats…
Positive…before feeding the pups are hungry and they know the treats are tasty from previous conditioning…
Hide the treats and cast the pups…they are driven to hunt and are totally focused on task at hand…the incentive is hunger and the pups are mentally conditioned to react in this way…I call this building the foundation…these are the little things we can do in making better hunting dogs…
3rivers put her in the woods, expose her to all it has to offer, only mistake you can make is leaving her in the pen too much.
__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.
"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"
Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.
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