UKC Forums - Answer this one.......

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Posted by JiM on 04-07-2014 09:05 PM:

Answer this one.......

3 dog cast. All 3 struck in order. A and B treed together in order. Tree closes. Dog C is split treed for 125. Cast handles all three and finds that A and B are on a long leaner that goes into a second tree. Dog C is on another long leaner that falls into the same tree as A and B's. It is determined that all three trees will be scored as one before any shining starts. How do you score this situation?
This is why I would not want to be a MOH. I think I know the answer but I darn sure would not want to have to tell my answer to the handler of dog C.

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Posted by Rocketman55 on 04-07-2014 09:16 PM:

Well Jim If I'm reading correctly, the determination to score as all one tree dictates that this tree was closed as soon as the 5 minutes are up. That being said, then dog C is declared treed on a closed tree and will receive minus tree points for coming in late on a tree that is already closed. Even though dog C appears to be split, the determination to consider this situation as all one tree, dictates you have no other choice according to the rules as written

I know this is a bad break for Dog C in one aspect, but it is fair if you consider the fact that the other two dogs had been treeing for over 5 minutes. And now dog C decides to tree on a tree that is in such close proximity to dog A&B that you have to score it as all one tree.

So I say minus Dog C's tree points because it was not really split when the cast arrived, and deal with the strike points in accordance with what ever you do with the other dogs strike points.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 04-07-2014 09:16 PM:

Dog Cs 125 is gonna turn into 125-, Im gonna be ready to run when i tell him.

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Posted by Max LeBleu on 04-07-2014 09:22 PM:

Dog A - 225+
Dog B - 150+
Dog C - 175-

He gets minused his tree points for treeing after the first tree was closed. You would treat it like he left a split tree and came in to A & B's closed tree.
He would get minused his strike points because he came into a closed tree where a coon was seen. (I am assuming a coon was scored)

Posted by duke20002000 on 04-07-2014 09:31 PM:

Well dog c whould get -125 becouse they agreed to shine it as one tree
Now I they score this as split I would plus dog c

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Posted by mauser06 on 04-07-2014 09:33 PM:

If its gunna be scored as one dog C would have to be minused 125 for being treed on a closed tree...

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Posted by bush whacker on 04-07-2014 09:34 PM:

I have been a M.O.H. for 40 years and have never had this happen at a hunt I was officiating. But I would plus dogs A & B.And minus dog B both ways. It sounds a little harsh but that is how the rules are written.

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-07-2014 09:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bush whacker
I have been a M.O.H. for 40 years and have never had this happen at a hunt I was officiating. Unless I am missing something the answer seems to be cut and dried. Dog A 125+ tree points dog B 75+ tree points and Dog would be awarded 50+ tree points for a 3rd tree. And all dogs would receive their strike points + in the order they were called.

I dont know how ya justify 50+. the dog is either on a closed tree or it isnt. If it is,its minused, if it isnt,it gets 125.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 04-07-2014 09:56 PM:

I have learned the hard way to never tree my dog anywhere near a closed tree until i see things with my own eyes, even without the leaning tree deal if A or B slide over with dog C while you are walkin to the tree your gonna get burned.

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Posted by joey on 04-07-2014 10:04 PM:

You know the answer Jim, He will be 125- and if you find the coon he will get another 50-. How would you like to see it done differently if at all?

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Posted by Surveyor on 04-07-2014 10:43 PM:

Well oddly enough pretty much this same situation did happen on a cast I was judging a few weeks ago. Dog was treed and actually way up on a leaning tree and another guy saw his dog up on another tree probably 40 yards away and said split tree my dog over there on that tree. Then we found out the leaner went right into the tree his dog was split on. I can tell you how I (we) handled it and it may very well have been wrong, but I hadn't wrote anything down yet and just said if everybody is ok with it, I'm just not going to accept the tree call and circle his strike since no coon was seen. We all felt that was fair and went on.

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Posted by Surveyor on 04-07-2014 11:00 PM:

Forgot to mention the straight tree that the second dog was on was hollow.

Posted by Brandon Gudgeon on 04-07-2014 11:17 PM:

Once it is determined to be scored as one big tree, wouldn't you erase the split tree call and just minus his strike points? I'm just thinking of the scenario where dogs are all treed in, and when you get in there after the 5 you find that there is a split tree. In that scenario the scores are adjusted to show split tree. I would think it should work for this scenario too.

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Posted by Adam Wingler on 04-08-2014 12:08 AM:

This actually happened on my cast Friday night, with one exception, the judge split treed his before we walked in, after arriving his dog left the split tree, ran over to other tree and back to where he started. Me and another handler immediately suggested he should be minused for moving as the judge plainly said "split tree my dog". However, he then suggested to score it all as one tree which was a den and leafy mess. I questioned it but in the end it wasn't a determination of a winner so I said erase it and never presented to the MOH.

So, not to hijack the thread, but who would agree to minus the moving split tree called dog and who wouldn't?

Posted by Bengie Bengala on 04-08-2014 02:28 AM:

The tree is closed for dog A and B, so once dog C is treed it has to go in for 125. Now that it's established that it's gonna be scored as 1 tree. Dog C gets 125- as if it left its tree. Rule 4 I. Since he was treed BEFORE THE JUDGE ARRIVES, if the tree is slick or has off game he is awarded next available on that tree and gets minus. Rule 4 K. If coon is seen he gets minus on strike and nothing on tree. Rule 4 J. Unless he was shut out on strike. Then he gets nothing for coon being seen. If dog C came in AFTER THE JUDGE ARRIVES he gets NOTHING on tree, and will be minus on strike if coon is seen. Rule 5 B.

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Posted by LoggyBayouBlues on 04-08-2014 03:34 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Surveyor
Well oddly enough pretty much this same situation did happen on a cast I was judging a few weeks ago. Dog was treed and actually way up on a leaning tree and another guy saw his dog up on another tree probably 40 yards away and said split tree my dog over there on that tree. Then we found out the leaner went right into the tree his dog was split on. I can tell you how I (we) handled it and it may very well have been wrong, but I hadn't wrote anything down yet and just said if everybody is ok with it, I'm just not going to accept the tree call and circle his strike since no coon was seen. We all felt that was fair and went on.

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Rule 4(j),
If dog declared treed, after five minutes has elapsed no additional dog can be declared treed at that particular tree, but if they come in to tree they will get minus on track and nothing on tree if coon is seen.

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Posted by Anderson Kennel on 04-08-2014 10:24 AM:

The way i read it all dogs were not on the same tree ,Dog A & B is on leaning tree dog C is on leaning tree also. A&B tree and C tree all lean to same tree which we will call D tree,so they deside to score as one tree so how do you minus dog C it was not on A&B's tree.If coon is found split tree points on all 3 dog's if coon is not in tree D minus all 3 dog's.

Posted by Bengie Bengala on 04-08-2014 12:01 PM:

The trees are either split or scored as 1 tree. You can't vote to score it as 1 tree, then award 2 different sets of tree points. I have never been on a cast where 2 dogs could get 125+ on the same coon. In this case they voted to score it as 1 tree.

Posted by john Duemmer on 04-08-2014 12:24 PM:

UKCs position is "one tree at the top=one tree on the ground" so if 3 trees are being scored as one, they are also considered one tree on the ground.

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Posted by JiM on 04-08-2014 01:54 PM:

It would be awful tough for me to tell handler C what I would have to tell him if I was judge. But it's good to see most of you have got this one figured out. Judging ain't always the most fun.

Posted by prostockpat on 04-08-2014 02:26 PM:

Dog c!!!!

Can't be minused BOTH ways!!
Guy above thats been MOH for 40yrs is WRONG!!

This has to be #1 and #2 rule that is always scored wrong:
Dog coming into closed tree before and then after cast/judge arrives

4{g} is the ONLY way a dog can be minused BOTH ways{straight from Paul at Ukc};a dog tree'n but not declared treed when judge arrives at a slick or offgame.

A dog coming into a closed tree;
minus strike if coon seen.
circle strike if minused or circled.

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Posted by Paul Frederick on 04-08-2014 02:34 PM:

Re: Dog c!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by prostockpat
Can't be minused BOTH ways!!
Guy above thats been MOH for 40yrs is WRONG!!

This has to be #1 rule that is always scored wrong:
Dog coming into closed tree before and then after cast/judge arrives.
4{g} is the ONLY way a dog can be minused BOTH ways{straight from Paul at Ukc}

A dog coming into a closed tree;
minus strike if coon seen.
circle strike if minused or circled.

Pat, what about 4(k)?

"Dogs treeing but not declared treed, when Judge arrives, will be minused on tree points on "off" game or slick tree."

Dog C was obviously there before the judge arrives so he falls under this rule since the cast decided this is one tree. He automatically gets his 125 minused, and his strike (and possibly his next available tree position in accordance with 4(k)) will be dealt with according to how the tree is scored. He could, in fact, be awarded next available on the tree and then both it and his strike minused if there is off game or it's a slick tree.

I just checked my 2011 Rulebook and 4(g) in it is what 4(k) is in the 2014 Rulebook. It's very confusing trying to look at the new vs. old book. I probably mentioned 4g in a question about this type of situation before the first of the year when the rule number was changed. The actual rule remained the same, but it's number did not.

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Posted by prostockpat on 04-08-2014 02:37 PM:

lol

Thanks Paul.
Its confusing.

Posted by Paul Frederick on 04-08-2014 02:54 PM:

Re: lol

quote:
Originally posted by prostockpat
Thanks Paul.
Its confusing.

Pat, going back and reading your response I don't think you are as wrong as I thought!

I don't think I read it completely right which is my fault.

Yes, you are referencing 4g in the old book which is 4k now. I know we've talked about this rule and you have a good understanding of it. I'll be honest, I have to check the rulebook about every time to double check just to get the wording completely right. It gets confusing when you know the old numbers when they are changed around!

Also at the end you reference a dog coming into a closed tree when judge arrives. You scored that correctly. In this scenario that JiM gave though, the dog is obviously there when the judge arrives.

In the new rulebook we clarified how to deal with a dog who was treed after the five was up, and then found on the closed tree.

Rule 4(l)

"Any dogs declared treed after the five minutes expires and tree is closed; call will be accepted as a split tree. If dog is on closed tree when judge arrives, strike and tree points are scored as if it had left a split tree and moved to closed tree."

Hopefully this clears it up even more.

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