UKC Forums - Breeding Females

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Posted by Corey Gruver on 04-28-2021 06:22 PM:

Breeding Females

Quick question for wondering minds...

At what age do you think it is best for a female to have it's FIRST litter of puppies?

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Posted by V. Cannon on 04-28-2021 08:17 PM:

The breeds aren’t all the same, some breeds need bred very young before their bones are hardened but in my opinion hound breeds shouldn’t be bred before the second heat cycle.

Posted by OLD TIMER on 04-28-2021 10:23 PM:

When --

she proves she can track and be open mouth and tree a live seen coon 90 + percent of the time.

Now, if that happens before her first cycle so be it, if it doesn't happen before her fourth?? Dig a hole and move on.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 04-28-2021 11:46 PM:

Re: When --

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
she proves she can track and be open mouth and tree a live seen coon 90 + percent of the time.

That sure sounds good, but I doubt many, if any, of those exist. I’ve heard about that kind of accuracy, but have never witnessed it. I’m sheltered and don’t get out too much either 😉

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Posted by Reuben on 04-28-2021 11:53 PM:

For me it all depends on several things...
First I have to like the bloodline and really like the female...once all this is good then I would breed her on her first heat cycle if I needed pups...

If I don’t need pups I might not breed her for a good while...

If I were trying to purify a new bloodline I would breed very often for three generations...

The meaning of purifying in this case just means that I picked the females correctly and I wanted to get three generations of good females...to further improve my chances of having a higher percentage of quality pups in each generation that follows...the more quality dogs in the immediate background gives a higher percentage of quality pups per litter thereafter...at least that is the goal...

I have bred a reasonable amount of females in their first heat period and they had excellent pups and went on to be excellent hunting dogs after the pups were weaned...

People might ask, how can you breed a 10 month old gyp if she isn’t totally finished out?
Well, when you know your dogs and you have observed you pups since they we a few days old and watched them progress to being excellent at what they are supposed to do...and as a 6 month old pup she is impressive for her age...and at 9 months she is a pretty decent dog and there is no doubt she will be a good one at a year and better at 1.5...these are the type I would breed on their first heat if I were to breed at that time...

Also, if wanting to improve your chances you keep as many female pups as you can and sometimes at 6 months you will be down to 2 or maybe one female...just making sure the best one is kept to further improve the bloodline...does that mean we are keeping the very best? No it doesn’t...but it is the best that we have at the time...that’s about the best we can do...

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Posted by OLD TIMER on 04-29-2021 12:42 PM:

Mr. Stoll--

With the shortage of Ammo today, I guess it maybe a good thing they are breeding the type of dog that is being hunted. Just look at the TOC night, would have only needed one shell??

PS: I have owned those and I have found that “papers” didn’t produce that type. My early hounds were grade and most of my hunting is Oct through Dec. And when it comes to Reg. hounds, PR is just as good if not better then all the BS in front of the letters PR. Having been around a few years and following some good ones, the problem started when people thought they where breeders and bred papers instead of performance. But hey, play the game you enjoy, I just know I have buried some “outstanding” papered dogs that would have saved the World lots of ammo but when I walk to a tree, there better be eyes with a ring tail looking at me because that’s why I hunt and feed them.

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Posted by J. Pinson on 04-29-2021 02:11 PM:

I'm still looking for that 90% accurate hound myself. Like big foot I've heard a lot about him but I've never seen it

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Posted by Corey Gruver on 04-29-2021 02:14 PM:

Thanks for the replies. Everyone has their preference as to what QUALIFIES a female to be bred. That's not necessarily what I am asking. I'll get 100 different answers to that question, and I already know what I think on that.

I am asking specifically about WHEN is the right time to breed a female for the first time, specifically in reference to her AGE. 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? I'm sure everyone has an opinion on what is too young and what is too old.

What does everyone think on that?

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Posted by OLD TIMER on 04-29-2021 02:25 PM:

If she can do it RIGHT—

Never to young or to old

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Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 04-29-2021 02:25 PM:

I think there are several thoughts on this. I will start with one that doesn't speak to the quality of the pups. Just the health of the female. Never breed one till their second heat cycle. As before that, they are generally still a puppy themselves and are still developing physically and mentally. Another thought on the subject is the one Old Timer mentioned. It is also the thought I agree with but won't put a percentage on the coon in the tree. The more the female aligns herself with the owners standards of what a coonhound should be. The better chance the owner has of getting some decent pups. The more the female aligns herself with the standards of what a coon hound should be in reality. Your chance of decent pups goes up. Way to many breeders let their vision cloud the vision of what a decent hound really is. It may take a couple years for the female to be ready to be considered breeding material. In todays world a female that is really nice is more valuable in the hunts that in a brood box.

Vic, I will agree that 90% is hard to achieve. I think 80% is a more realistic goal to accept and allow to speak to the quality of your dogs accuracy. Hunting with a Man right now that just moved down here. Over 3 weeks we have made 3 trips to the woods. Taken his English hound off 4 trees and he is 100%. Had to have the thermal unit to figure out the last tree had a coon but he was there.

Not having a bad day LOL but I have to agree with Old Timer again on the Paper Trail our dogs have. Way to much hype and dreams put into the pedigrees. You get pups that perform like the parents. If there is something you don't like. Don't breed because you will have that show up in the pups. It always comes back to haunt you. But if your just in it to sell them fast. It comes back to haunt someone else. That is where our hound breeding has went wrong.

Don't get me wrong. The papers can give an indication as to what to expect from a pup. So they are a tool to use. But the parents ability is what speaks louder. And any nonsense the parents in them, even speaks louder than ability.

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Posted by houndsound on 04-29-2021 02:40 PM:

Re: ..

quote:
Originally posted by J. Pinson
I'm still looking for that 90% accurate hound myself. Like big foot I've heard a lot about him but I've never seen it

The truth is out there... lol. Most of the 90% hounds I've heard of happen to be dead for many years. I wonder how much is truth, how much is exaggerated fond memory, and how much was opportunity.

What I mean by opportunity- do dogs get hunted more often in general... If I only took my hound out during prime nights in prime season, in spots I knew were loaded with coon... I would probably have a 95% accurate hound. Hunting year round, in parts of the country with thin coon..... certainly will not help percentages.

That said, I do think the lack of accuracy is a problem in the breeds that people need to really "breed for purpose" in correcting it. It just should not be accepted. I've seen adds for dogs for sale to the effect of , "Dog hunts hard, 70% accurate, $3500. "

Don't breed to dogs that have not proven to be accurate, don't buy pups from dogs that have not proven to be accurate, cull dogs that are not accurate.... if people would commit to this... I believe we would see more accurate hounds as a rule, not an exception.

Like Old Timer pointed out, the scores throughout the TOC were interesting. I'll say they were all probably better dogs than I have, and earned everything they got. I don't highlight Old Timer's point to knock any one dog, but just use it as a data point... when the top 64 dogs in the country weeded out through a year long process are jumping possums, getting scratched, and failing to tree more than a coon on a cast.... you may have to scratch your head. There are thousands of variables as to why scores were low... most not indicative of the dog itself... like most data points and statistics, they don't tell the whole story, but they should not be ignored either.

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Posted by Lone Pine JB on 04-29-2021 02:44 PM:

When you're ready to hunt a pup off the female.

Probably around 3 or 4 at earliest.

But I'm not into raising/selling pups. I only want to breed for pups that I want to hunt, and if there are extras to sell, so be it.

Now the breeders that have most pups sold before they're ever born look at things differently. But I think Randy even waits until they're about 4 or older after they've been campaigned and done their own fair share of winning.

It would be nice if there was a way to flush eggs and keep for long term like there is for semen. I know they do it with sheep, so their probably is a way, but what the cost is could be the issue.

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Posted by MUSKY on 04-29-2021 02:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver
Thanks for the replies. Everyone has their preference as to what QUALIFIES a female to be bred. That's not necessarily what I am asking. I'll get 100 different answers to that question, and I already know what I think on that.

I am asking specifically about WHEN is the right time to breed a female for the first time, specifically in reference to her AGE. 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? I'm sure everyone has an opinion on what is too young and what is too old.

What does everyone think on that?

A lot of professional breeders of pets breed back to back starting on the gyps second heat for 4 or maybe 5 breedings then they retire that female. Most likely they would not be bred past 4 years of age, and definitely wouldn’t gamble on trying to breed a 6 or 7 year old gyp at all.

I cannot see this working with hunting dogs that well, I want to breed a finished hound for sure.

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Posted by HOBO on 04-29-2021 04:26 PM:

Corey,

I like to wait till the second heat cycle just to let the female mature some. I have bred on the first cycle with no issues, just my personal preference.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 04-29-2021 05:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver
Thanks for the replies. Everyone has their preference as to what QUALIFIES a female to be bred. That's not necessarily what I am asking. I'll get 100 different answers to that question, and I already know what I think on that.

I am asking specifically about WHEN is the right time to breed a female for the first time, specifically in reference to her AGE. 1 year? 2 years? 5 years? I'm sure everyone has an opinion on what is too young and what is too old.

What does everyone think on that?

18 months up. In reality for the dams health and overall health and wellness of pups younger eggs are better just like in women. In some places in the performance dog world they do not breed females that are 5 or older. Here people breed them until they no longer cycle. A female is born with all the eggs she will ever have with each cycle many are used. The older a female gets the likelihood of smaller litters and defects, many unseen by the human eye increases. Many of our top old time breeders would breed on the first cycle or just over a year in age and sweat that their best performing dogs came from these young dam crosses. They could be correct in their thinking from the simple fact of the unseen. Think of mental retardation and downs risk associated with older women increasing every year they are over 30. By the time they reach 40 those risk are much, much higher. There is little to gauge this on in dogs. I'm not saying that plenty of top crosses don't happen in older dams haven't happened because they do but science tells us that as far as chances for a good healthy litter overall comes from your dams that are dropping more and younger eggs. Age 1-4 are what I would consider optimal.

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Posted by Corey Gruver on 04-29-2021 06:42 PM:

Some great responses here! Really gets the brain blood pumpin'...

All of my experience raising litters of puppies has come from bitches that were 4+ years old. Some for the first time, others were experienced 'brooders'. One female that I had raised five litters during her 12 years on Earth, one of those litters coming from her first or second year (I can't remember exactly). She was an exceptional mother, even after whelping her last litter at 9 years old.

I would think from a general health standpoint, it would be an advantage to a gyp (that would be purposefully used in some kind of breeding program), to be bred once by the time she turns 2 years old.

That's why I'm asking, very interested to hear peoples thoughts and gain some scope into better breeding practices. Thanks again and keep it coming.

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Posted by OLD TIMER on 04-29-2021 06:54 PM:

Could be a lot of truth in that "younger" female stuff--

I seen there's a 3 page post about divorce and some of that was probably because of females with younger eggs???

The percentage of coon in the tree has nothing to do with the amount of hunting nights--using Bruce's 80%, that means 8 out of 10 trees has a coon or 80 out of 100 or 800 out of 1000. I started out with a female in the 50's that was in the 90%, her son was even higher. In the 70's I had a Bluetick that was 80%+. I had Reg Redbones in the 60's up to today that overall where/are in the 80%+. I feed them to tree coon not trees. I don't carry a score card but a .22 and I don't carry it just to look the part. I had the privilege of meeting and talking with Dave Dean in the 80's and I asked him "What do you breed for?" And I meant like voice-nose or color but his comment was "what ever the score card calls for." So today there are "things" your dog doesn't need when you carry a scorecard but my .22 still judges a hound like it did back in the 50's. And thank you to the guys and gals that also don't like walking in the dark to empty trees.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 04-29-2021 07:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver
Some great responses here! Really gets the brain blood pumpin'...

All of my experience raising litters of puppies has come from bitches that were 4+ years old. Some for the first time, others were experienced 'brooders'. One female that I had raised five litters during her 12 years on Earth, one of those litters coming from her first or second year (I can't remember exactly). She was an exceptional mother, even after whelping her last litter at 9 years old.

I would think from a general health standpoint, it would be an advantage to a gyp (that would be purposefully used in some kind of breeding program), to be bred once by the time she turns 2 years old.

That's why I'm asking, very interested to hear peoples thoughts and gain some scope into better breeding practices. Thanks again and keep it coming.

Got me thinking about how the dams to our dogs were at the time of breeding so I went back and checked. Mafia's was near 2 years old, Shack's 4 and Tack's was around 5.
We've bred plenty of older females and had success, as have many others but from a optimal time frame for females and eggs dropping I'm sticking with my 1 - 4 years assessment.

Posted by OLD TIMER on 04-29-2021 10:20 PM:

Houndsound—

You can come here or you can go to MO and Jerry Anderson said he’ll take Thunder or Scout and you will see eyes 90+% of the time. And you will hear bawl on track and with Thunder a chop on tree and Scout short bawls on tree. I know what he feeds and he’s hunt hounds from me. Just saying

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Posted by shadinc on 04-29-2021 10:44 PM:

Re: ..

quote:
Originally posted by J. Pinson
I'm still looking for that 90% accurate hound myself. Like big foot I've heard a lot about him but I've never seen it

Don't stop looking. They're out there.

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Posted by Vic Stoll on 04-30-2021 12:48 AM:

I guess the folks that own these 90 percent accurate dogs just never attend Competition Hunts? They could sure clean house if they’d enter up?

Posted by Vic Stoll on 04-30-2021 01:01 AM:

I apologize for hijacking your post Corey!

Been some good thoughts shared, not too young or not too old in the physical sense. If she makes you smile more often than not in the coon treeing department.

Posted by houndsound on 04-30-2021 01:23 AM:

Re: Houndsound—

quote:
Originally posted by OLD TIMER
You can come here or you can go to MO and Jerry Anderson said he’ll take Thunder or Scout and you will see eyes 90+% of the time. And you will hear bawl on track and with Thunder a chop on tree and Scout short bawls on tree. I know what he feeds and he’s hunt hounds from me. Just saying

Next time I pass through your neck of the woods I'd be happy to drop hounds and enjoy a hunt.

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