UKC Forums - Why Redbones

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Posted by Brother David on 02-24-2014 03:10 PM:

Why Redbones

Why is it that when redbones show up to hunts that everybody is so surprised when they go hunting and tree coon . I hunt very few comps but they laugh when I pull out my red then act shock when he goes and does his job .

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CREATE IN ME A CLEAN HEART , O GOD AND RENEW A STEADFAST SPIRIT WITHIN ME !!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-24-2014 03:22 PM:

Some aren't laughing, Bud Hood, Russ Bellar, and now Ronnie Bone have bought themselves a Redbone. And I heard that Sluggo Payton was looking for one. I bet that when any of these men show up with a Redbone no one laughs. When I show up with a Redbone everyone laughs but I know that they are laughing at me, not my dog.

Posted by Troy Arnold on 02-24-2014 03:40 PM:

I havent comp hunted yet but when my redbone was still a pup and not running yet i took him to bench show and all the walker guys said if you actually have a redbone that is a coondog you got something there. They acted like redbones are just show dogs. I just dont think there are enough redbones out there. I take my redbone to vet and everyone says how good looking dog he is what type is he and i say redbone they say well ive never heard of that. I tell them redbones are a breed of coonhound and they always say i thought all coonhounds are black white and brown. Plus look at the classofieds there are walkers for sale on every street corner. Dont see all that many redbones for sale. Why is it there are way more walkers then all other breeds combined? I even drove 3 hrs to a redbone sectional one time and there were 3x as many walkers as there was redbones at it.

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Redbones
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Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-24-2014 06:36 PM:

Because good redbones that can compete and win consistently against tough competition are rare as hens teeth. Supposedly every one has one tied out behind their barn....but for one reason or another they choose not to enter them in competition. The ones who get entered in competition the most don't seem to be those kind....
The truth to your question is....many times people who see a good redbone who trees coon say the same thing and that is that that is the first redbone they ever saw that could tree a coon or....that's the best redbone they have ever hunted with. I get that all the time....because most people rarely ever draw a redbone in a competition hunt and when they do....they often walk away thourouly unimpressed. I would estimate that in the last 2 years of all the hunts that I entered my redbone in that were not a redbone breed hunt or zone hunt....80% of the time I was the only person at the hunt with a redbone.
Overall...there just are not many entered in the competition hunts, and that's not just in my area...except for a few pockets of concentrated redbone hunters....its pretty much nationwide.
I don't mind it all that much. I kind of like to have the underdog in the cast and have the other handlers underestimate what's at the end of my leash. When a redbone wins, especially against some good competition....people talk about it...and that's good for the breed. I have been saying for a few years now that interest is building in our breed among handlers of other breeds. I know many walker guys who are known for their top level dogs who will buy a redbone if it is as good as what they are used to hunting and pay lots and lots of money for it. They would bring a lot of attention to the breed if they get behind the right one....but the kind they are searching for are rare...very rare.
Unless you hunt in top level competition like they do...you may not understand what kind of dog they are looking for. They don't want a dog that can tree lots of coons....they want a dog that can tree lots of coons and do it better according to the competition hunt rules than most of the best competition hunt dogs out there.
To be honest, I think redbone people who know what the type of dog I am talking about are just as rare as the redbones that fit that description. Its not good enough to just have a dog that can tree coons in competition....if you want to win...your dog has to do it better than MOST other dogs that you hunt it against....and I think that is where many redbone people have trouble understanding the difference between a good coon dog and a good competition dog. Most are satisfied with a dog that trees them coons when they take it out hunting...and they often don't enter their dogs in competition, or especially top level competition hunts...so they are content to keep producing that type of redbone...and that's fine if that's what they want.
But judging from the excitement that builds when that rare redbone that can compete and win at the top level breaks out and does start winning....I think many in this breed want more than just a good dog that can tree coons...they want a good redbone that can beat the best of other breeds in top competition. Well, there is only one way to get there and that is to know exactly what your up against, stop making excuses as to why redbones can't beat these types of dogs more...and breed redbones with specific traits that they need to win at this level. I know what kind of dog wins at this level....I have won at that level before...but have also been beaten at that level many more times...and I remember those casts better than most. I learned from them and that is why I am breeding for a little different type of dog than many other breeders.
If you really want to experience top level dog work....go to the hunts that draw those type of dogs and spectate on a few casts or read some play by plays on the internet boards and see what some of the common denominators are in dogs that win at that level over and over.Then look at how many redbones are placing in those hunts and if you do see one occasionally....find out what the dog is really like. I bet it might surprise some to find out what one or two main things about that dog and other dogs who win at that level are.
I can tell you from experience that some of them will be Independence, drive, accuracy, and consistency. Those are the common denominators that make big winners and those are the things the redbone breed struggles with. We have those traits in the breed...but we have trouble getting them all lined up in the right combination in specific dogs and doing it at a high enough percentage to make an impact at the top level. Hopefully, someday we will be able to get it right. Best of luck to those who are working towards that.

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
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Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
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as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by Larry D Walker on 02-24-2014 09:13 PM:

Speed Quickness

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw

I can tell you from experience that some of them will be Independence, drive, accuracy, and consistency.

I think I would add speed/ quickness to that also, and quickness seems to be something that most redbones do not have enough of.

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Indiana

812-327-8224

Posted by rdmedders on 02-27-2014 12:07 PM:

Btt

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Jesus saves!

Posted by masonman1974 on 02-28-2014 09:07 AM:

from what I understand I haven't been at this long enough to have what I got tied up in my back yard.....all the breeders from years past and present I THANK YOU...it did not take me long to figer out that not only do people think that a reddog wont hunt but that a lot of them DO NOT LIKE REDBONES...and will do and vote anything to keep from getting beat by one....and like shane said I like being the underdog,or so they think..i personally take a few moments and look at the other hunters faces when we get to the tree...their all lookin at red..every time...at every tree...I geuss they just have not seen a reddog with treepower ..[if they have seen one at all]...I am a young comp. hunter.....but I am almost 40...red is my first hound,i did not know that I would be the only guy there with a reddog when I started but it did not take long to figer out....every club hunt I go to now everybody knows me [the guy that hunts that reddog] I don't know most of them or what kind of dog they hunt,but most knows me and what I hunt...I kinda like to keep a low profile but not possible with a reddog...but im in it to win it...I will always hunt red.

Posted by MikeR on 03-04-2014 11:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
Because good redbones that can compete and win consistently against tough competition are rare as hens teeth. Supposedly every one has one tied out behind their barn....but for one reason or another they choose not to enter them in competition. The ones who get entered in competition the most don't seem to be those kind....
The truth to your question is....many times people who see a good redbone who trees coon say the same thing and that is that that is the first redbone they ever saw that could tree a coon or....that's the best redbone they have ever hunted with. I get that all the time....because most people rarely ever draw a redbone in a competition hunt and when they do....they often walk away thourouly unimpressed. I would estimate that in the last 2 years of all the hunts that I entered my redbone in that were not a redbone breed hunt or zone hunt....80% of the time I was the only person at the hunt with a redbone.
Overall...there just are not many entered in the competition hunts, and that's not just in my area...except for a few pockets of concentrated redbone hunters....its pretty much nationwide.
I don't mind it all that much. I kind of like to have the underdog in the cast and have the other handlers underestimate what's at the end of my leash. When a redbone wins, especially against some good competition....people talk about it...and that's good for the breed. I have been saying for a few years now that interest is building in our breed among handlers of other breeds. I know many walker guys who are known for their top level dogs who will buy a redbone if it is as good as what they are used to hunting and pay lots and lots of money for it. They would bring a lot of attention to the breed if they get behind the right one....but the kind they are searching for are rare...very rare.
Unless you hunt in top level competition like they do...you may not understand what kind of dog they are looking for. They don't want a dog that can tree lots of coons....they want a dog that can tree lots of coons and do it better according to the competition hunt rules than most of the best competition hunt dogs out there.
To be honest, I think redbone people who know what the type of dog I am talking about are just as rare as the redbones that fit that description. Its not good enough to just have a dog that can tree coons in competition....if you want to win...your dog has to do it better than MOST other dogs that you hunt it against....and I think that is where many redbone people have trouble understanding the difference between a good coon dog and a good competition dog. Most are satisfied with a dog that trees them coons when they take it out hunting...and they often don't enter their dogs in competition, or especially top level competition hunts...so they are content to keep producing that type of redbone...and that's fine if that's what they want.
But judging from the excitement that builds when that rare redbone that can compete and win at the top level breaks out and does start winning....I think many in this breed want more than just a good dog that can tree coons...they want a good redbone that can beat the best of other breeds in top competition. Well, there is only one way to get there and that is to know exactly what your up against, stop making excuses as to why redbones can't beat these types of dogs more...and breed redbones with specific traits that they need to win at this level. I know what kind of dog wins at this level....I have won at that level before...but have also been beaten at that level many more times...and I remember those casts better than most. I learned from them and that is why I am breeding for a little different type of dog than many other breeders.
If you really want to experience top level dog work....go to the hunts that draw those type of dogs and spectate on a few casts or read some play by plays on the internet boards and see what some of the common denominators are in dogs that win at that level over and over.Then look at how many redbones are placing in those hunts and if you do see one occasionally....find out what the dog is really like. I bet it might surprise some to find out what one or two main things about that dog and other dogs who win at that level are.
I can tell you from experience that some of them will be Independence, drive, accuracy, and consistency. Those are the common denominators that make big winners and those are the things the redbone breed struggles with. We have those traits in the breed...but we have trouble getting them all lined up in the right combination in specific dogs and doing it at a high enough percentage to make an impact at the top level. Hopefully, someday we will be able to get it right. Best of luck to those who are working towards that.

100% truth spoken there! Until you guys start consisting breeding and producing Red dogs that can compete with and win against the Walker and English breeds most comp hunters won't change their attitudes or opinions about Redbones. "Goes and does his job" is one thing, dominating a cast is another.

__________________
When it comes to coonhounds some people are easy to please. I'm Not!

GrNiteCh Ch Oak Branch's Black Bird Star
Wipeout Chesapeake Piper

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-05-2014 03:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Some aren't laughing, Bud Hood, Russ Bellar, and now Ronnie Bone have bought themselves a Redbone. And I heard that Sluggo Payton was looking for one. I bet that when any of these men show up with a Redbone no one laughs. When I show up with a Redbone everyone laughs but I know that they are laughing at me, not my dog.

You can now add Mr Bob Dudley to that list. I bet that no one laughs at him.

Posted by Brother David on 03-05-2014 04:01 PM:

still looking

The question is why do people laugh and make jokes when they hunt around a good red dogs . Myself nor my hunting partner have this problem . Are they that rare . I know of some good ones and some that are talked up , so why do they laugh?

__________________
PSALMS 51:10
CREATE IN ME A CLEAN HEART , O GOD AND RENEW A STEADFAST SPIRIT WITHIN ME !!!!!!!!!!

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-05-2014 04:11 PM:

I guess that you are asking the wrong people. The people on this forum aren't the ones laughing. Maybe you should go on the walker forum and ask them why they laugh at the Redbones.
Actually, I think that Mr Maxey gave you a very good answer.

Posted by Brother David on 03-05-2014 05:04 PM:

I am always told they never seen red dog worth owning . Some on this site who talk up their hounds on this site are the ones laughed at.

__________________
PSALMS 51:10
CREATE IN ME A CLEAN HEART , O GOD AND RENEW A STEADFAST SPIRIT WITHIN ME !!!!!!!!!!

Posted by redpower on 03-05-2014 06:47 PM:

I have a couple that made them stop laughing and start whinning before the hunt was over. I have heard -I never hunted with a Redbone- did nt know a Redbone could tree a coon-never seen a Redbone tree a coon and my favotite was to hear one say one of the best dogs I ever hunted with yrs ago was an old Redbone.

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Posted by Sawblade on 03-06-2014 01:03 AM:

Meadville Pa

Come to a hunt at Meadville Pa. You won't find anyone laughing at redbones there. The red dogs don't win them all but it's a pretty common thing to see them going home with the yellow slips.
At that club I would say most hunts will have a red dog in about 70 % of all casts. They quit laughing a long time ago.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,

They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-06-2014 02:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Brother David
Some on this site who talk up their hounds on this site are the ones laughed at.

You asked and answered your own question in your very first post. Did you start this whole post just so you could make that statement? Sometimes I have to laugh at myself.

If people want to talk up their hounds, what is wrong with that? Some people think that they have a nice hound and want to talk about him/her. I don't see why they should be laughed at. Maybe we should be a little more understanding of them and not so quick to laugh at them.

Posted by masonman1974 on 03-06-2014 03:09 PM:

lol...im gonna say I gotta reddog that has never been out hunted by any color dog ,I been beat but never out hunted my reddog has drive[all nite long drive] my reddog don't slick..[very rarely]...my reddog has tree power any coonhunter would be proud of....my reddog will split in a heartbeat if the other dogs have slicked...get gone get treed coondog and im very proud of him ...I showed him his first coon and now he is nitech...laugh at my hound lol...LETS GO HUNTIN...

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-06-2014 06:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
You asked and answered your own question in your very first post. Did you start this whole post just so you could make that statement? Sometimes I have to laugh at myself.
If people want to talk up their hounds, what is wrong with that? Some people think that they have a nice hound and want to talk about him/her. I don't see why they should be laughed at. Maybe we should be a little more understanding of them and not so quick to laugh at them.

I think your on to something Richard. Many people who post on the board are proud of what they are hunting. Some of those people are pleasure hunters who are sure in their mind that what they have tied out behind the barn is better than most of these slick treeing competition dogs. They are positive their dog could beat those big name dogs....if they ever entered them in competition....
Then there are others who post on this board who do hunt competition...alot, and they know it takes more than just a dog that can tree its own coon to beat those other three dogs in that cast. Heck, these days....every dog in the cast is a coon dog that can tree its own coon....so it really comes down to which one can do it better than the others. The fact still remains that most of the time, its the walkers and english that are doing it better and winning the cast. As a breed we need to admit that to ourselves and work on breeding our dogs to improve the qualities that will give us the edge over the competition...no matter what color it is! It is strange to me that so many people are in denial about where our breed is ranked in competition terms and popularity terms.
It is what it is...but that doesn't mean it's stuck there or that we can't change it. I get alot of flak for giving my honest opinions as to where I see the redbone breed compared to other breeds in the competition world. Most competiton hunters agree with alot of what I say and most pleasure hunters dont.
But honestly....who is going to work harder to improve competition redbones....competition hunters who want to beat the other breeds? or pleasure hunters who already think they have the best already?
I don't think I have the best...in fact, I know I dont. I know this because I hunt against and get beat by better dogs all the time. Now some people can laugh at me if they want...but you wont find anyone out there who isnt getting beat by other dogs if they hunt very much in competition. I been around long enough to know that even the best dogs who have won world championships and are gold or platinum champions have been beat many many times. The very best dogs I know of ....when they are tuned up and looking their best are lucky if they win above 50% of the time for any lengthy period of time.
It makes me laugh when guys get on here and say they have one of the best because its won every single cast its been in....then you find out later it has only been in less than a handful. Look at any big winning dog of any breed and you will see alot of losses behind it. Thats just part of the game....there can be only one cast winner .....even in a cast of 4 previous world champions who were at one time....the best dogs all the way through the entire championship hunt....if they are all cast together....3 of them are going to lose....its just a fact.
The bright side to all this is, there are some really good redbones out there that are pulling ahead of the pack and standing out...even in mixed company.
Book em Danno, John Henry, red hawk are just 3 who have been winning big as of late. If we can produce more dogs like these....their are plenty of people currently hunting other breeds who will gladly hunt a redbone. Two of the dogs I just mentioned are owned and handled by guys who were not even redbone men before. Our breed is where its at as far as popularity and competition ranks go strictly because of its performance against other breeds.
No body hates our breed because of its color. And just as men and women are judged upon their merits and abilities in the sporting world....so are hounds....and thats the way it should be! If we want to call our breed the best without being laughed at...then we need to prove it is the best by winning against the best of other breeds. Until we can do that.....anyone who claims their redbone is better than the best walkers or english dogs out there runs the risk of being laughed at by those who will demand proof.
So I encourage everyone who thinks they have a redbone who can compete with and beat those other breeds to put their money where their mouth is and prove it....just like the guys with Danno, Jon Henry, Red Hawk, Boone, T, and many others are doing. There are few dogs that can win at that level....but nobody in this breed should be laughing at anyone with a redbone who is trying to win...even if they come up short in their attempts. Losing to a better dog makes you see your dogs weaknesses and areas that your dog and the whole breed can benefit from.....but you cant make excuses or turn a blind eye to it. You have to be honest enough to actually see what some of the other breeds have that is giving them the ability to dominate in competition.
You may not like those particular abilities in a dog...but if your going to compete against them....you better respect them....and if you want to beat them...you better figure out a way to breed them into your line of redbones.
There are breeders who are doing that right now....and I for one am very happy to see all the hard work and effort they are putting into that.....shane

Posted by masonman1974 on 03-06-2014 06:45 PM:

after reading the above post ,I want to be honest I personaly think I have a reddog that can compete ,well I know I do ,from seeing the caliber of dogs I have seen thus far in my greenhorn start to this thing...here is the honesty...my hound is honest he just is not going to bark when track is not there ,some say he is tight and he may be a little tight but mostly he is just a honest strike dog,so as I believe he has it all except being a good strike dog I have breed him to a hard going female that does open fast as I believe along with drive,independence,accurate,ect...you really need a good open dog to up your odds in the comp. world...is there any coments on my post here as to quick to open reddogs?

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-06-2014 08:03 PM:

I would say the majority of the best redbones I have hunted with over the years were a little on the tight mouth side. I feel like you do though ....if your going to win alot in competition....the rules favor a dog who opens quick and trees quick....so thats what I try to breed for. There are dogs out there in all breeds that tree too quick....and strike too quick....and although it helps them sometimes.....it more often hurts them. Honesty is the best policy....for dogs...and the men and women who handle them....

Posted by jkhutch on 03-06-2014 08:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw
I been around long enough to know that even the best dogs who have won world championships and are gold or platinum champions have been beat many many times. The very best dogs I know of ....when they are tuned up and looking their best are lucky if they win above 50% of the time for any lengthy period of time.
Look at any big winning dog of any breed and you will see alot of losses behind it. Thats just part of the game....there can be only one cast winner .....even in a cast of 4 previous world champions who were at one time....the best dogs all the way through the entire championship hunt....if they are all cast together....3 of them are going to lose....its just a fact.

There is times we do get laughed at and wonder what dog we brought.....

quote:
Originally posted by Hoosier Outlaw

So I encourage everyone who thinks they have a redbone who can compete with and beat those other breeds to put their money where their mouth is and prove it....just like the guys with Danno, Jon Henry, Red Hawk, Boone, T, and many others are doing. There are few dogs that can win at that level....but nobody in this breed should be laughing at anyone with a redbone who is trying to win...even if they come up short in their attempts.

Then is there is times that we get to do the laughing....

__________________
Jared Hutcheson
Indiana
Redbones:
GRNTCH PKC Ch PR Hutch's Big Walnut Boone HTX DNA-V(Haze X Reba)-
2 Time UKC World Top 100
UKC World Top 20 (13th)
UKC Purina Redbone of the year
PKC Redbone CH
UKC Top Producers List
UKC Winter Classic High Scoring Redbone
Co owned with Richard Lambert

GrNtCh PKC Ch One Chance Fancy- (Boone X Toadie)
2018 Autumn Oaks Grand 16
2018 Grand National Redbone
2018 Redbones Days RQE 1st Place

Walkers-
NTCh PKC CH Jeb�s Finley River Peanut- Co owned with Bishop Stallcop
Claremont PKC Legacy hunt Final 4
PKC Breeders Showcase Final 4

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 03-06-2014 09:53 PM:

He who laughs last...laughs best....

Posted by Richard Lambert on 03-07-2014 02:02 PM:

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"......Think of a coon hunt as a school dance. Most of the guys there think that they have the prettiest girl in the room. But if you had a judged beauty contest, only one would win. But those guys would still think that they had the prettiest girl. And would you laugh at them?

But I have been to an all Redbone hunt and people laughed at me.

Posted by redpower on 03-07-2014 02:25 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"......Think of a coon hunt as a school dance. Most of the guys there think that they have the prettiest girl in the room. But if you had a judged beauty contest, only one would win. But those guys would still think that they had the prettiest girl. And would you laugh at them?

But I have been to an all Redbone hunt and people laughed at me.

But you like it.

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