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Posted by wbond on 12-06-2013 06:58 PM:

How a century of breeding 'improvement' has turned once-healthy dogs into deformed an

Let the debate begin

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-animals.html

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Posted by Cynthia on 12-06-2013 08:30 PM:

wow

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Posted by 1nighthunter on 12-09-2013 02:24 PM:

Interesting sure makes one wonder especially after reading CB this month

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Posted by masonman1974 on 12-09-2013 02:53 PM:

I think the blogger guy is retarted.....the only one looked different was bull terrier but the old pic was not a bull terrier...

Posted by Larry Atherton on 12-09-2013 03:16 PM:

First of all, the gentleman blogger has picked dogs who have been selected to physical extremes.

Yes, I feel that man has pushed several breeds too far, and that many show breeders have used vanity much too often in their breeding choices. I mean their vanity as much as the for the dog's vanity.

Even though I live in Michigan, I haven't received my Bloodlines yet so I can not speak to.

I do not believe that as far as physical traits that we have been detrimental to our hounds. I do believe we have been fairly successful for breeding for treeing traits. Unfortunately, we haven't trained all of our trainers on how to deal with natural borne tree dogs.

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Posted by Cynthia on 12-09-2013 03:23 PM:

look again. all of the dogs have changed. either head pieces, length of leg, body build (stockiness).

Posted by bluetickman2002 on 12-09-2013 03:48 PM:

problem is 99% of them nowadays are house pets not working dogs any more and 99% of the people who breed them for house pets have no buissness breeding dogs at all
most probly have no idea what their particular breed standard is

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Posted by JiM on 12-09-2013 04:44 PM:

When a breed is incapable of breeding naturally and incapable of welping naturally (English Bulldog) that breed has made a wrong turn. I don't see anything here that can be applied to coonhounds.

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Posted by Cleo on 12-09-2013 05:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by bluetickman2002
problem is 99% of them nowadays are house pets not working dogs any more and 99% of the people who breed them for house pets have no buissness breeding dogs at all
most probly have no idea what their particular breed standard is

Amen.

I am afraid of what the next 25 yrs will bring.
As for a "breed standard", it seems that can be changed to suit whomever is "in charge" this week.

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Posted by wvhardline86 on 12-09-2013 08:21 PM:

they all started from something else and in the future they will be something new as they where in the past.

Posted by Cynthia on 12-09-2013 08:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by wvhardline86
they all started from something else and in the future they will be something new as they where in the past.

but how is this possible if the breed standard does not change????

Posted by 1nighthunter on 12-09-2013 09:20 PM:

After reading the article in CB The Judges Speak Out I was just wondering about the argument Show dogs can not tree a coon and the dogs that tree a coon cannot win a big show are we going in two different directions almost no one in the show or hunts compete in the same dog in both what I mean is by that a dog that hunted in a hunt like Autumn Oaks making the sweet sixteen and being show as a Grand at the same hunt

I guess what I am saying I see very few who are breeding for both

Oh and by the way I thought the article was very good and interesting really enjoyed the Judges answers to all the questions

Posted by joey on 12-09-2013 09:35 PM:

A lot of those changes can be attributed to just being different dogs. I have had hounds that were short and stocky and some that are leggy and thin. The blogger is acting like every dog of that breed in the past looked like the one in the photo and every one today look like the show dogs he compared them too.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 12-09-2013 09:38 PM:

Any breed of dog in which the individuals being bred are selected on the basis of appearance is destined to suffer in performance. Their are many examples in the AKC. show dogs of working breeds that have become useless for the purpose that the breed was originally intended.

The other side of the coin are the physical problems that can crop up when physically inpared individuals are bred based only on performance. Look at all the thyroid problems that some lines of hounds are producing, but they keep breeding them. 10 years ago no one even thought about a dogs thyroid, now some guys have multiple dogs in their breeding program that have to live their whole life on medication.

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 12-10-2013 06:01 PM:

John,

Most of the dogs with Thyroid problems are larger hounds. This trait is an interesting one. Typically, a good performer has to be physically sound. This isn't the case with thyroid or eyelid issues. Inverted eyelids is a simple recessive trait, and it is fairly easy to select away from simple recessive traits in 3-4 generations. The thyroid issue is interesting because it develops with age. So you can have a good performer who suddenly doesn't hunt quite the same.

I will look up and see what my dog genetics book says about the thyroid issue and its mode of transmission.

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Posted by joey on 12-10-2013 07:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
John,

Most of the dogs with Thyroid problems are larger hounds. This trait is an interesting one. Typically, a good performer has to be physically sound. This isn't the case with thyroid or eyelid issues. Inverted eyelids is a simple recessive trait, and it is fairly easy to select away from simple recessive traits in 3-4 generations. The thyroid issue is interesting because it develops with age. So you can have a good performer who suddenly doesn't hunt quite the same.

I will look up and see what my dog genetics book says about the thyroid issue and its mode of transmission.

I would appreciate knowing about the thyroid issue also Larry. I'm hunting one of the best I have followed and she has a thyroid problem. She is 4 coming 5 and has never been bred. I have an appointment Tuesday to have her spayed because of this. She is not a large dog though. She is around 45 lb most of the time.

It seems that every dog getting tested has it. Is it just something that has always been a problem and they were not tested for it? Its popping up in several lines and breeds of coon hounds so if it has not always been a problem then it must be an environmental factor? Dog food, hart worm meds, insecticide?

Posted by J. Langley on 12-10-2013 10:27 PM:

English Bulldogs can have natural births, that is a myth that is false. It is true that most pups are taken c-section, but that is just to prevent POSSIBLE complications. Any dog can have complications during birth, and most bulldog breeders just dont want to take any chances because of the $$$ at stake. A litter of 5 can bring you $10,000

Posted by Dale Young on 12-10-2013 11:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
I would appreciate knowing about the thyroid issue also Larry. I'm hunting one of the best I have followed and she has a thyroid problem. She is 4 coming 5 and has never been bred. I have an appointment Tuesday to have her spayed because of this. She is not a large dog though. She is around 45 lb most of the time.

It seems that every dog getting tested has it. Is it just something that has always been a problem and they were not tested for it? Its popping up in several lines and breeds of coon hounds so if it has not always been a problem then it must be an environmental factor? Dog food, hart worm meds, insecticide?

Interesting thought Joey, If it's in most breeds of hounds I would guess it didn't get there thru crossbreeding . Within one breed maybe but I don't think we've done enough crossbreeding to spread it very far .

Posted by Dale Young on 12-10-2013 11:48 PM:

Most of these dogs had a purpose in life that no longer supports a need for them other than pets , companions and show dogs . What I see for the modern dogs is mostly soft out of shape conditions . The German Shepard's I see on TV in the show ring look weak in the hind legs . They may or may not be but that's the way they appear to me .
Most things in life go back to balance with one part supporting the other parts and working well together . A dogs life is short and they practically age as we're looking at them so it shouldn't be a surprise that the majority lose a step in later years just as we do .

Posted by Hubbard84 on 12-10-2013 11:48 PM:

What were talking about here in the article is mans Artificial Selection of certain characteristics in dog breeds over the past 100 years. This is opposed to Charles Darwin's Theory of Natural Selection in which certain traits are selected for by natural processes allowing the individuals with these traits to survive and reproduce. The bulldog is a good example of how humans desire to have dogs who are lethargic, obese, slobbery, and stupid looking has completely made this breed unhealthy. The eyelid rolling in is called Entropion, and my coondog had this when she was younger and we had it surgically corrected. I think coonhunters have selected for the right traits to breed healthy, hard-hunting hounds. I don't have much evidence of this, but am interested in learning more about the thyroid issues. My dog is only three now but this year she hasn't been hunting wide at all, and her hair never has grown in thick like I would like to. Just wondered what all of the signs/symptoms were of thyroid problems in dogs?

Posted by joey on 12-11-2013 02:14 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Hubbard84 My dog is only three now but this year she hasn't been hunting wide at all, and her hair never has grown in thick like I would like to. Just wondered what all of the signs/symptoms were of thyroid problems in dogs? [/B]

From what I understand it effects every organ in the body in some way or another. The skin is the largest organ and is a sure sign of a problem. My gyp is thin haired and does not put on a winter coat, and has issues with hot spots.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 12-11-2013 03:48 PM:

Thyroid issues

O.K. this information is straight from the book written by George A. Padgett, DVM "Control of Canine Genetic Diseases."

Of the 308 breeds of dogs listed nearly 200 of them are prone to thyroid issues. Each of the coon hound breeds and the American fox hound are also prone to it.

It is considered a recessive trait, but the mode of inheritance is undetermined. Onset is typically just before 2 years old.

Hypothyroidism is considered a mild genetic disorder due to the fact that it responds well to treatment.

In Newfoundlands the frequency of hypothyroidism is 7/100, and a guesstimate of carrier frequency is 38.4%.

Here is what Dr. Padgett suggests: #1 know your own dogs, #2 prioritize the traits, #3 pick the whole dog first, #4 determine the risks for potential mate, #5 know how to use your information. These are the steps to responsible dog breeding, and controlling canine genetic diseases.

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Posted by joey on 12-11-2013 04:01 PM:

Re: Thyroid issues

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
O.K. this information is straight from the book written by George A. Padgett, DVM "Control of Canine Genetic Diseases."

Of the 308 breeds of dogs listed nearly 200 of them are prone to thyroid issues. Each of the coon hound breeds and the American fox hound are also prone to it.

It is considered a recessive trait, but the mode of inheritance is undetermined. Onset is typically just before 2 years old.

Hypothyroidism is considered a mild genetic disorder due to the fact that it responds well to treatment.

In Newfoundlands the frequency of hypothyroidism is 7/100, and a guesstimate of carrier frequency is 38.4%.

Here is what Dr. Padgett suggests: #1 know your own dogs, #2 prioritize the traits, #3 pick the whole dog first, #4 determine the risks for potential mate, #5 know how to use your information. These are the steps to responsible dog breeding, and controlling canine genetic diseases.

So the public should be asking before they breed if the stud is on thyroid meds. I know of a few that are on it that are being bred left and right. You have to give them meds every 12 hours for the rest of their life. Thats why my female is being spayed this weekend. She is seventh generation of these females I have owned and I have not had a problem before, but Im sure thats because they were not tested before.

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