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-- How we evolved into todays dog world. (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928535698)

How we evolved into todays dog world.

I know there have to be a bunch of old timers on here that hunted in the 60's and 70's and perhaps even earlier. I think about the dogs we had back then and how they have changed over time. I think the thing that separates the old timers from the new run and gun guys. Is the young guys don't care how it use to be done or how the dogs use to operate. They want one to play the game today. Not the game we played 50 or 60 years ago. I understand that. I respect that. The truth is. Knowing how the dogs operated back 50 years ago doesn't do a thing for me in finding a dog to win with today. I guess it is just part of my coonhunting fun to have seen the dogs evolve.

We went from a pack hunting bunch of dogs to totally independent. That's a big change and probably the most recognized by most. Then we try to figure out why which really doesn't matter but then again another fun thing to do. I think the answer is simple. Independence has always been there but not in the numbers we have today. Independence would generally bet a pack of dogs following one another around making mistakes. Independence back then was noticed as a winner and the dogs that didn't have it naturally were trained to be alone in the 90'5.
I think the independent dog put a lot of pressure on judges and made and developed a new generation of judges. When dogs packed. I could judge. When dogs starting splitting all over the place. It took all the fun out of judging for me and opened up a world of arguments on how to score and keeping separate time. When it first started happening on a larger scale. Judging got real interesting but then the judges went through a learning curve and overall got better. 50 years ago, I was all about natural breeding and genetics. Finding a tree dog that wanted to tree without wearing out your hand patting the side of a tree was hard. Then that changed and you didn't even want to lean against a tree or the dogs would start treeing or put your light in a tree you didn't want the dogs to tree on. For many, it is still about the genetics. Without a doubt that is the foundation of our dogs. But the foundation of our tree dogs has increased and the majority of pups will make a decent dog if handled properly. Still plenty of duds that do nothing but a lot more counterfeits that look and act like a coonhound at times and food a lot of people. It was easy back in the 60's to spot a worthless hound. They either treed the coon or hung around your feet or just followed the pack and were standing at the tree doing nothing. Today they do some many things half way they even fool their owners into thinking they have a decent hound. The one thing that I do understand. If I want to play the game today. It is not with a dog from my memory bank of what they were 50 years ago. Is is one of todays hounds that like the old time dogs have flaws. Just a different set of them.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

How We Evolved

Bruce I would agree with entire post. Nothing is right or wrong about today’s hounds. It has been said many times. The only one they need to make happy is the man buying their feed.

With that being said I hunt primarily the northern half of country and I am from Illinois where coon are thick. I still prefer one that will tree the 2 or 3 behind the “deep and alone” hound. Take tracks as they come and if my dog happens to split tree that is fine.

The hound I described is so much more versatile meaning I want to be able to compete but I also want to to be able to enjoy a pleasure hunt.

I will probably stir some up with this reply but just my 2 cents.

Todd Price

Dogs

I started in 1978 and most hunters were hide,pleasure type hunters that part of the sport is gone and never coming back so we've lost at least 40 to 50 percent of those hunters I like a dog like mr prices the type that tree the most coon per acre

I know there have to be a bunch of old timers on here that hunted in the 60's and 70's and perhaps even earlier. I think about the dogs we had back then and how they have changed over time. I think the thing that separates the old timers from the new run and gun guys. Is the young guys don't care how it use to be done or how the dogs use to operate. They want one to play the game today. Not the game we played 50 or 60 years ago. I understand that. I respect that. The truth is. Knowing how the dogs operated back 50 years ago doesn't do a thing for me in finding a dog to win with today. I guess it is just part of my coonhunting fun to have seen the dogs evolve.



Actually... I will point out my feelings on this statement. My first coonhunt was 1970. Still hold the same standards I had back then
Back then, coon were worth alot of money. I honestly and truly believe, alot of dogs today would have been trade dogs. Whoa... What? Yep... Many nights here in Ohio, many nights you might run 1 coon 3 woods. With the trappers, spotlighters and hunters... alot died the week season openrd...Now, put old independent, get gone till he finds a coon track, (remember, no trackers back then).. how many roads were crossed, how many hours looking for dogs instead of coon. If you killed 30-40 coon a year( yeah, everyone came out $$$) you had a coondog.. there are guys that kill 300 a year now... I have been turned down 2 times for permission the coonhunt in the last 4 years, coon are so plentiful.
I am also a person that hunts year round. I want to see my dogs run that ole rutting boar coon 600 yards, looking for a girlfriend, and tree him. I want (and do) cut loose in single digits and snow.. you get ole deep and lonely.. my old legs... would not be fun for me.
And I honestly think, most that hunted in the 60's and 70's.. are a very, very small portion of competition hunters today. We can't keep up with the run and gun type youngsters. 3 minute tree rule, racing to trees, I haven't been in a hunt since AO 2019.
I want to enjoy what time I have left. I hunt 95% of the time alone. Hunt 4-5 nights a week. I hunt with the leaves off, no feeder buckets, cold, snowy.. those nights are the ones I dress warm, and smile when the dogs are right.
This is JMO. Guess an old cuss set in my ways

__________________
Lethal Blue kennels.
Where the females count and you will never see a "brood" female!
Dan and Kris Rosier
Canton, ohio
330-904-3392


Home of: Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Lil Bit of Respect.... Ch. Nite Ch PR Shivers' Magic Lead X GR. Ch. Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Betty Jane
PR. Lethal Blue Tayen Grace..... Nite Ch. Pr Coffins creek running J.R. X Gr Ch Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Moonlite Serenade.



Gone but never forgotten
Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Moonlight Serenade... Gr. Ch. Nite Ch PR Hillbillys Smokey River Dutch HTX X Gr. Ch. Nite CH. PR Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara

Gr. Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara... Dual Gr. Ch PR Bowens Blue Deuce X Ch. Nite Ch. PR Becky.

Gr Ch Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Betty Jane...... PR. Crites Soggy Bottom Blue Banjo X PR. Mosquito Creek Tree mamma Sis

Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Rattlin Samantha ... Dual Gr Ch PR Mid Ohio Rattlin Sam X Gr Ch PR. Lethal Blue Jet's Xena

Gr. Ch. Nite Ch Hillbilly's Smokey River Blue Dutch HTX..... Gr. Ch. Gr. Nite Ch Pr. Smokey River Tramp's Blue Lake and Pr. Misty River Blue Doll III.
(Dutch wasn't ours, but he was here and like one of the family)

Pr. Dan's little Porter.... my last beagle...

Good post Dan. You might be a brother that I never knew I had. Thanks for sharing.

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Richard Fish
620-550-1439

I think the rules of this game have alot to do with how our hounds evolve.....
In the last 10-7 yrs there's been more rule changes than I can remember in the 40+ yrs that I've been involved......some good, some not so good.

With $ hunts now here these hounds will evolve again in short order.....it won't take 20-30 yrs to change them ....
Quick will be the main order of the nite hunts..
And quick x quick will be the recipe of some breeders.......
Now if we can just get rid of the leash lock rule all together......no waiting a minute or walking a reasonable distance to flip....no single set of strike point on split trees.......no 8 minutes holding a dog on a leash just to minus another dogs strike.......
Let the dog (s) hunts .....the sorry ones will be xposed in quick order ......

Bruce I still think too much emphasis is placed on independence. For quite a few years I hunted up to three different dogs a night and proved to myself that I could hunt a dog by itself enough to make it independent of other dogs yet still cover another dog if it had nothing going. I'm talking about the MAJORITY, sadly not all. I did breed for speed since I took pride seeing my dog take anothers track away and treeing ahead of it. My idea of independence was a dog confident of itself to hunt by itself and tree by itself but if something wants to tag along thats fine. Never wanted one to race to get away from others and not pack around and make the same mistakes as others.

Dogs of today are only the results of dogs of yesterday

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

.

Conrad, I cannot disagree with that statement. But I will add. Most are the results of winning dogs of yesterday. Many of which were the type of hound most of the pleasure hunters didn't want. But winning, titles and full page ads in the magazines sold pups and got your dog bred. I am not putting winning down or the dogs of the past. Dogwishiper said it well. Our hounds are a product of the rules. Again the winners conformed to the rules and won. Winners got bred. I just wish the rule writers has the wisdom to see some of this stuff coming. But the truth is. If you're a young gun and want to get a hound and compete. There are plenty out there. If you're old and want to enjoy the stroll through the woods, just you and your dog. There are ones that will satisfy those requirements also. Great sport with a lot of lanes to travel in. Just stay in your lane and you will enjoy it more.

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Bruce, i agree with you also! My point being you can breed for the winners as you say, or you can focus on the the dogs that were time tested to produce great solid dogs.
Great solid dogs are downright enjoyable

__________________
Striving to breed balanced Treeing Walkers.

"Life is short boys, Hunt an intelligent hound"

Born in sin, convicted by the Word, saved by Grace.

Great solid dogs are very scarce

Yesterday hide dog--Todays scorecard dog

Went to my first tree in the fall of 1956 and got my first hound a few months later for $3.00. Hunted with a hide hunter at the start. He wanted a dog that was tight hot nose and stayed treed. Pretty much the same type that hunts for the scorecard today. I liked the open trailer, cold nose and hard tree hound.

Today the bigger difference is in the guy/gal feeding their hounds. If you feed them for their voice, nose, looks and personality regardless of their breed and are more of a hound person then a got to be first/win at any cost "hunter", that's' the difference I see.

I don't know of any "big" breeder or University that have bred bigger, faster or meaner coon, cats or bears. So what worked that night in 1956 will and still works in 2021, the game that is being chased is the same and I would guess they even smell the same.

But I suppose when you pay $60,000.00 for a pickup, $1,500.00 for a tracking system, $500.00 for a light and $900.00 dog box, probably a $3.00 pup just wouldn't like all the fuss??

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OLD TIMER

So what do you think would happen if there were laws passed through out the nation that outlawed the use of ANY electronic devices whatsoever with any hound or other canine used to pursue game.

Take away electronic track and train equipment and cell phones and you’d see hunting dogs change as well. Whose going to want old deep and alone with no track and train equipment?

I’m not knocking the equipment available today. In many ways it has been a huge plus for the people who love to keep and hunt hounds........including me. I’d dare say though, without it there’d be a very small percentage of hound people keeping the type dog it appears to take to win consistently in today’s coon hound events.

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Dan

Back when I was a kid and teenager in the 70’s early 80’s I got excited when Dad said we were going to the Heilman’s to hunt. We walked up one holler from the house, went up out of the holler onto a ridge and then back down a holler to Heilmans house. We had dogs that would hunt and usually treed a few coon in the 2 to 3 hours that it took to make the loop. Now 5 years ago I married my wife who lived, and I now live, at the old Heilman farm. Same place but 35 to 40 years later. I wouldn’t even want to go hunting here without my Garmin and UTV to track down where my dogs would go now. It’s a different game and the older I get the more I enjoy hunting with a buddy of mine who has those old style hunting dogs. I no longer want a dog to go until they stop at a tree where I can go get them. I used to get mad at a dog if it wouldn’t hunt alone more that a half mile but times are changing, land is getting harder to find to hunt, and the deer hunters rule around here in the fall and winter. I won quite a bit with a female in the late 70’s, early 80’s that won by being close and alone or almost always getting first tree. I’d like to find another one just like her now even though back then I might have faulted her for not going quite deep enough. Now she would be perfect for me and would still be a handful in a hunt.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

How we evolved

Two points:
1. Thirty years ago plus I felt lucky when my dog got of by itself. I
believe there was a much higher percentage of mean tree dogs which
led to breeding more independent dogs to stay out of trouble.
2. I agree that today we see a higher percentage of independent
hounds. But just how many hunters actually have an independent
dog? I see far more "me too" dogs in the hunts than independent
dogs. And I see some of these "me too" dogs called treed as soon as
the independent dog locates. I see posts that seem to criticize those
that hunt an independent hound. I hunt what I like and I breed for
independent hounds.

ov_blues loved your story. DL NH these tracking systems are a necessity today and they sure support the madness of our sport. But also support the comfort that I am bringing my dog back home and that I am coming home the same night. Not daylight tomorrow after looking for a dog several hours.

Old Timer loved the part of the game not getting any meaner or faster.

I think having the electronic equipment that tells you what the dog is doing and actually how far away the dog is. Is disappointing and frustrating at times. I now know many of the dogs I hunted over the years and how they operated. Was more of a mind set than actual truth. I use to hear a dog that I thought was trying to unravel a bad track in a bad swamp and enjoy what I was listening to. Now with the Garmin I see the dog still trying to unravel a track but see they are not making progress. They are barking over and over in the same sports they barked 15 minutes ago. I also have found out many of the dogs I would hear deep in a swamp starting to bark. Are doing nothing but trying to get out of that swamp and barking on my buddies dog track that went through there 5 minutes ago. I hear the term "Dogman". I see the Dogman as the person that knew and corrected the nonsense their dogs were doing many years ago before the Garmin came along and showed the rest of us our dogs problems. How many today see the faults of the dogs plainly on the screen. And still deny it. Today like yesterday for some the answer is the same. "They just need a few more coon".

__________________
www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Economics & Hunting Land Access

Some hunters appreciate an independent hound because it only requires you to feed, hunt , & handle one dog. You can really get to know your dog when you hunt it exclusively. Smaller hunting spots lend themselves to hunting fewer dogs. When I started hunting in the late 70’s, we pack hunted because it was hard to find a dog that would consistently tree coons alone. We had strike dogs that wouldn’t tree and “locators” that were tree dogs but weak on hunting and getting struck. Most guys were feeding at least 3 to 5 dogs back then. Most hunters have neighbors close by nowadays. Neighbors don’t appreciate a bunch of hounds barking all the time.
-
I like a dog that is indifferent. One that operates the same alone or in company. It seems like a hunter has a better chance to find a balanced dog that can consistently tree Coons alone today. It’s still not easy though.

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Happy Huntin’
Leon

I see it as we have bred too heavily for a trait that used to be considered a fault. A Culling fault.

1. in the early days like OV mentions you walk hunted and your dogs hunted generally with you and around you.

2. Fast forward 10-20 years and we truck hunted, dropping dogs into a section of timber and heading to them when they treed.. Generally all together. Prices were high on hides and the best way to maximize the catch and time was to catch, regroup and recast after each tree. You start recasting hounds with no tracking system and it will get western real quick when the population is low.

3. We did not have the coon population of today and tracking systems were your ears and brains and driving sections to listen.

4. An independent to a fault dog was a hunt killer back in the old days. He gets out of pocket and you can't hear him, your hunt is blown up and you spend your time hunting a dog.. Happened to often and he didn't make the trip home.

5. Today that dog is the blue ribbon winner by the score card and hunters want to hunt winners. The game changed and breeders changed the dogs to match.

6. In the big time bird dog field trials back in the day a dog must honor another's point at least once in each brace, failure to do so is disqualification. Wonder what trait they were trying to emphasize or deemphasize?

Some meanderings... I like mine alone with eyes looking down, not gonna lie, but I believe they all should tree together when the tracks right in front of them all. But I am not a comp hunter...

A man can't hardly hunt two dogs together alone anymore, at least not an old, fat, slow one.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Hall
I see it as we have bred too heavily for a trait that used to be considered a fault. A Culling fault.

1. in the early days like OV mentions you walk hunted and your dogs hunted generally with you and around you.

2. Fast forward 10-20 years and we truck hunted, dropping dogs into a section of timber and heading to them when they treed.. Generally all together. Prices were high on hides and the best way to maximize the catch and time was to catch, regroup and recast after each tree. You start recasting hounds with no tracking system and it will get western real quick when the population is low.

3. We did not have the coon population of today and tracking systems were your ears and brains and driving sections to listen.

4. An independent to a fault dog was a hunt killer back in the old days. He gets out of pocket and you can't hear him, your hunt is blown up and you spend your time hunting a dog.. Happened to often and he didn't make the trip home.

5. Today that dog is the blue ribbon winner by the score card and hunters want to hunt winners. The game changed and breeders changed the dogs to match.

6. In the big time bird dog field trials back in the day a dog must honor another's point at least once in each brace, failure to do so is disqualification. Wonder what trait they were trying to emphasize or deemphasize?

Some meanderings... I like mine alone with eyes looking down, not gonna lie, but I believe they all should tree together when the tracks right in front of them all. But I am not a comp hunter...

A man can't hardly hunt two dogs together alone anymore, at least not an old, fat, slow one.

---

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

quote:

---

Originally posted by Larry Hall
I see it as we have bred too heavily for a trait that used to be considered a fault. A Culling fault.

1. in the early days like OV mentions you walk hunted and your dogs hunted generally with you and around you.

2. Fast forward 10-20 years and we truck hunted, dropping dogs into a section of timber and heading to them when they treed.. Generally all together. Prices were high on hides and the best way to maximize the catch and time was to catch, regroup and recast after each tree. You start recasting hounds with no tracking system and it will get western real quick when the population is low.

3. We did not have the coon population of today and tracking systems were your ears and brains and driving sections to listen.

4. An independent to a fault dog was a hunt killer back in the old days. He gets out of pocket and you can't hear him, your hunt is blown up and you spend your time hunting a dog.. Happened to often and he didn't make the trip home.

5. Today that dog is the blue ribbon winner by the score card and hunters want to hunt winners. The game changed and breeders changed the dogs to match.

6. In the big time bird dog field trials back in the day a dog must honor another's point at least once in each brace, failure to do so is disqualification. Wonder what trait they were trying to emphasize or deemphasize?

Some meanderings... I like mine alone with eyes looking down, not gonna lie, but I believe they all should tree together when the tracks right in front of them all. But I am not a comp hunter...

A man can't hardly hunt two dogs together alone anymore, at least not an old, fat, slow one.

---

__________________
Lethal Blue kennels.
Where the females count and you will never see a "brood" female!
Dan and Kris Rosier
Canton, ohio
330-904-3392


Home of: Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Lil Bit of Respect.... Ch. Nite Ch PR Shivers' Magic Lead X GR. Ch. Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Betty Jane
PR. Lethal Blue Tayen Grace..... Nite Ch. Pr Coffins creek running J.R. X Gr Ch Nite Ch PR Lethal Blue Moonlite Serenade.



Gone but never forgotten
Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Moonlight Serenade... Gr. Ch. Nite Ch PR Hillbillys Smokey River Dutch HTX X Gr. Ch. Nite CH. PR Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara

Gr. Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Izabell Sitara... Dual Gr. Ch PR Bowens Blue Deuce X Ch. Nite Ch. PR Becky.

Gr Ch Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Betty Jane...... PR. Crites Soggy Bottom Blue Banjo X PR. Mosquito Creek Tree mamma Sis

Gr Ch. Nite Ch. PR. Lethal Blue Rattlin Samantha ... Dual Gr Ch PR Mid Ohio Rattlin Sam X Gr Ch PR. Lethal Blue Jet's Xena

Gr. Ch. Nite Ch Hillbilly's Smokey River Blue Dutch HTX..... Gr. Ch. Gr. Nite Ch Pr. Smokey River Tramp's Blue Lake and Pr. Misty River Blue Doll III.
(Dutch wasn't ours, but he was here and like one of the family)

Pr. Dan's little Porter.... my last beagle...

My two cents!

I enjoy hunting hounds in pairs. Especially when the two complement each other. And that includes honoring each other when it is called for and showing some independence at times also. We used to call that (balance). Give me a balanced, versatile hound.. We have all had those hounds that work good together and also had those that were like oil and water. I will not own or hunt a hound that blows through the timber and gets treed on the garmin and you have to drive to 90% of the time. That is just not fun to me. I enjoy the strike, the trail, the locate & then the tree...Also when that young hound starts figuring it out and getting ahead of the teacher every now and then. Or even a split tree is exciting. But not every time. Hounds call to let other hounds know that they have the track. I love to hear hounds calling/barking on a good moving track and the natural thing for another hound to do is to go like wild fire to that call...I thought the competition of this thing was to compete to see what hound could strike a coon the quickest. Then what hound could move and locate that coon in a tree the quickest and what handler had the guts to call his hound treed on the locate the quickest...We reward a hound for not honoring and that is not good for the breed. In the fox hound world a hound gets less points for running the game alone..(RA). A hound crossing 2nd gets more points than a hound running a piece of game alone.. Why would a hound get the same reward for treeing a coon by himself as the hound that gets first tree with two other dogs competing for that first tree. We are letting the rules of the game really change what we call a true champion...Which sadly is affecting the bloodlines. Sorry I'm just old school boys. Always will be...

__________________
Roy Jarman

Dan&Ann - That's an interesting idea about using a different scoring system for whether the dogs are split or together. 100 points for a split tree or 125 if treed first with company. 2nd tree could still be 75 imo.
Like Donnie Stevens said, "Now you can't tell which ones are good track dogs, which ones are quick locating tree dogs, or which ones are meaner then cat $hit." I agree with that 100%
I get the most pleasure coonhunting when my dog is faster on a track then the rest and gets treed (with the coon) before the rest. Deep and lonely might win hunts but they are no fun to hunt for pleasure (unless you're a deep and lonely guy).

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What comes around goes around!