UKC Forums - Rule question

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Posted by rickp on 11-16-2016 12:58 PM:

Rule question

All dogs declared treed . Dog A meets cast 30 yards from the other dogs. Other dogs are in hole in ground can not see in hole. Other dogs are circle points how do you score dog A?

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-16-2016 01:06 PM:

Circle, if it came from the direction of the hole. Same general area.

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Posted by ThatBlueDog on 11-16-2016 01:12 PM:

I'm not positive but pretty sure only one dog has to show you the hole. I may be wrong since the dog was 30ft away.

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Posted by MR.RATMAN on 11-16-2016 03:01 PM:

Circle it up

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Posted by JiM on 11-16-2016 03:16 PM:

I agree with the previous three .

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 11-16-2016 03:22 PM:

In my opinion a hole serves as the same thing as a tree. The dog must "show" what he or she has been declared treed in.

If the dog was seen in the hole and came out of it to greet the handler then I say no minus. But if you were walking into the hole and one of them appears a ways away from the hole I would minus it.

There are a lot of dogs that have been trained and corrected for getting in holes and most the time all it does is draw you minus points.

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Posted by pttm08 on 11-16-2016 07:00 PM:

If the dog comes off a tree 30 yards are you going to show it the same generosity?

Why circle?

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Posted by RLenhart on 11-16-2016 07:22 PM:

I'm assuming that everybody saying "circle" are referring to rule 5A but that does not pertain to dogs that were "declared treed". Dog A in the original post should be MINUSED IMO.
The other three dogs would be circled for staying at the hole. Assuming nobody got down on their knees and found a coon or a possum in there. LOL

Posted by JiM on 11-16-2016 08:13 PM:

5 (a) clearly states that only one dog has to show the end of the track. Whether declared treed or not, if the judge orders the dog handled, then 5 (a) applies and points are circled. If the judge determines the dog should not be handled, then it would be minused tree points and continue on trail. So the answer is it depends on the judges decision to handle the dog or not. But if that dog is handled at the hole , it gets circled points whether declared treed or not, assuming no coon is seen and the hole is not slick.

Posted by JiM on 11-16-2016 08:18 PM:

Re: Rule question

quote:
Originally posted by rickp
All dogs declared treed . Dog A meets cast 30 yards from the other dogs. Other dogs are in hole in ground can not see in hole. Other dogs are circle points how do you score dog A?

We have to know if the judge ordered the dog handled or not. If the judge said handle the dog, he gets circled along with the others. If the judge determines the dog is away from the hole too far to be considered "at the hole", then the dog would get minus tree points and continue on trail.

Posted by rickp on 11-16-2016 11:09 PM:

Dog A came from direction of hole and went back to hole with cast . Between waiting 5 minutes and the walk it had been 10 to 15 minutes. There was a question on scoring that's why I asked .The dog was handled.

Posted by groworg1 on 11-16-2016 11:33 PM:

first post you stated all dogs were treed tree is closed !

Posted by rickp on 11-16-2016 11:54 PM:

Yes I said that all dogs declared treed and yes tree was closed the last dog was not called treed until 10 seconds was left on tree. He waited for as long as he could.

Posted by groworg1 on 11-17-2016 02:06 AM:

got it ! after reading the advisor page 36 about holes i would ask this would you not minus a dog that came back 30 yards from a tree ? and why in the world would cast wait till the 5 is up to walk another 10 to get to tree or hole in this case unless the cast can see hole at 30 yards my vote would be to minus tree and circle strike i've been wrong lots of times that is why i ordered a advisor the rule book for the rule book and i still get it wrong sometimes

Posted by rickp on 11-17-2016 05:29 AM:

Would you plus all dogs declared treed on a tree as long as one showed end of trail on tree and others were milling around. The rule is different on a hole or tile I think. That's why I asked.

Posted by RLenhart on 11-17-2016 12:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by rickp
Would you plus all dogs declared treed on a tree as long as one showed end of trail on tree and others were milling around. The rule is different on a hole or tile I think. That's why I asked.

Yes it is different. The rule is getting misread. You can't tree dogs, minus one on the way in, then get there and say "oh they were all in a hole I'll just circle everybody" You treed a dog and it didn't stay. In my mind at the moment that dog came to you you had one decision "is the dog just coming off to meet his handler?" or "is the dog still hunting or milling around?" You either minus the dog or you don't "at that moment". Once he's minused I don't care what those other dogs are doing when I get there "where he's concerned" "because all dogs were declared treed" they need to stay where they were declared treed IMO.

Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-17-2016 01:25 PM:

I can see where a question mark would come in. What happened to giving the dog the benefit of the doubt. Pretty sure it was stated, he came out, 30 yards, from the direction of the hole and followed the cast back to it. You all are saying it is like a tree. You all are looking for a Way to minus the dog. If you all accepted his tree call, you must have heard him at the hole or you don't have to accept it, he comes from the hole... Geesh... You all know what he was doing.. circle it and move on... In my cast, as judge, circle....

Posted by Bill(Chew) on 11-17-2016 02:47 PM:

Harleydan, if you tree the dog it must be scored as if treed regardless if it turns out to be a hole.

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Posted by Richard Lambert on 11-17-2016 03:41 PM:

Why does everyone want to apply their interpretation or personal feelings when the rule plainly states that only one dog must show the hole? I am sure that everyone has their own personal opinion about how to score this but UKC's opinion is the only one that is supposed to count.

Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-17-2016 03:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bill(Chew)
Harleydan, if you tree the dog it must be scored as if treed regardless if it turns out to be a hole.

Understood, but again, he showed every indication he was there. Judge took his call. He heard dog at the hole. A dog, in my opinion, reacts differently at a hole. I will not minus a dog for meeting and walking back to the hole. Just as some judge say as long as a dog is within the canopy of the tree won't get minused. What if the canopy is 100'.. a small tree means the dog must remain closer? IMO, this is common sense, if it was a 4' thick oak and dog is looking up, 40' off tree... You gonna minus him? You are all judging on what you believe a dog should act like in a hole. Feel safe, on my cast, I will use my 46 years experience, knowing the dog was there and did NOT leave, I will not minus. Had the dog not followed back on, then a different outcome. Sorry, not changing mind.

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