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Age to start pups / success rate

Been a growing observation in my mind lately on success rates some guys have vs. Others with starting pups . There are guys that get a pup , kennel it up until 7 months - 1 year of age before the pup is messed with much and IMO it seems only maybe 1/3 of these pups even start . A few guys around my house are this way and it seems like they end up culling the majority of these pups if not all; also adding most of these guys only take these pups to the woods and turn them with ole Sally "if they are natural they will start" . . . But I can't help but notice younger kids and old men that constantly prank with pups from the time they are 6 weeks until they start , always have a nice started pup and they usually have one on a consistent basis ... And usually those make the better dog than the pup that was kenneled up until the verge of a year old . I guess I'm bored and after browsing through classifieds and seeing hundreds of litters on the way ... One has to wonder what happens with all these pups , are that many of them culls ? If we are producing that many culls we are doing something way wrong or many just shouldn't even attempt to buy pups . I would say a bit of both

So do most of you believe in "if it's natural it will start on it's own " or do you believe the more the pup is interacted with as a weanling on up the odds of success are way better .

For me .. It's #2 .. Just my opinion

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# 2

I think when you mess with a pup from the get go it has a better chance. Even with natural ability, to make it the best it can be you can't just take it to woods with other dogs and turn it into a real COONDOG. You must work with them. Its like a star NFL player, did he start playing in college, no he played ball all through school, when he was a puppy till NFL. Then again maybe I am doing it wrong. I haven't won the world yet. Lol. This is just my opinion.

Pups

It's my personal opinion that it's better to mess with pups at a young age. By that I mean, make them your buddy and teach them basic obedience. I don't believe that you make good dogs by letting them sit in the kennel 24 hours a day until they are old enough to hunt. I believe that a dog should want to work for its owner and try to please them and its hard when you dont make that bond early in life. I don't show them many caged coons, but I always play with my pups and teach them basic obedience when they are young and it seems they turn out better that way. I've got two 5 month old pups right now and they both load themselves and handle well, but like I said that's what I focus on when they're young not drags and caged coons. I have personally ruined a few pups when I first got started coon hunting by showing them too many things like that. I definitely agree with "if they're naturals they start on their own", but I always lay that foundation of basic obedience way before I ever take them to the woods. This is all my personal opinion and I am by no means a dog trainer, but this method has given me success in the past. 1st. Obedience 2nd. A couple of turn loose coons 3rd. Woods time (and a lot of it)

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Preston Chadwell
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Good topic.

I think you can certainly have too little interaction with pups during their developmental period, but it only takes a little of the wrong kind of interaction to ruin one during this time.
An example that comes to mind was at a day game I went to recently. A guy had a 3-4 month old pup there, leading him around. He was a good acting pup, bold and friendly.
At least he was. This guy walked his pup up on a caged coon, which of course bowed up and hissed at the pup. The pup wasn't sure about all of this, and pulled away. The guy proceeded to drag this squirming pup up on the caged coon, and rubbed his nose in it. The puppy had nearly turned inside out trying to get away. Before it was over this guy had picked up and dropped his pup on the cage 2-3 times, with the pup getting more frightened each time.
I sat disgusted and watched this guy ruin or at least drastically set back a nice pup.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while good interaction is good, bad interaction can be devastating. I think a good start late might be better than a bad start early.
Of course, a good start early would be the best of both worlds..!

Obviously its not good to let a pup just a set in the pen but in some cases its better than exposing them to something they are not ready for. Scaring one is way worse than just doing nothing with them. I like to lead break them teach them to come and let them play and be a puppy. I start exposing them around 7-8 months although I will play with them on a coon tail but nothing serious before that.

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I believe the more you work with a pup the better his chances are. I started riding mine in the front seat of the truck at 7 weeks old just getting him use to being in the woods and riding and at 4 months old was going hunting with the older dogs. He just started his self really. Spending more time with him sure didn't hurt him any.

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Matt Bryan/Thorn Creek

They are born with the abilities are there not ! Now with that said you get out of something what you put into it and in the last 10 plus years I have started a average of 2pupsa year and havenot hada cull. Yet !!! With that said most went down the road but they would all tree coons and im sure I put a lot more time into some than a lot of people would have !!! Most left due to lack of heart and drive !! In my neck of the woods they need to go hard and deep and it takes either a special pup or a lot of time and patience. Here due to the lack of enough coons to kill a bunch to these pups!!! But I have always believed that they do it cause there bred to not cause they be t to chew on fur!!! And if I have to shoot 20 coons down tone to get it to perform i need to get a different bloodline!!! The few that had almost the whole package I couldn't send there mouths !!! I's that perfect pup outthere propably not but the love for the sport and the enjoyment and the bond that you develop with a pup and watching them develop into a loyal and consistant hound is what drives me to do it and hopefully will be doing it for a long time and find that one in a million that everybody dreams of and most never see!!!! The biggest problem I see is most are either breeding to fit the rules are to try to make a quick buck !!! And both of those reasons are what's hurting the breeds and hounds we hunt today!!!!Ljmo. And I also absolutely agree that 95% of the pups born today never get a fair chance to develop into the hound they could be!!

I try to never kennel one til it shows a need to be kenneled. This kinda makes sure it has plenty of time to learn at its own pace and that it is "available" for me to pet to interact with anytime I am home. When it starts being unsafe for the pup to be loose I feel like it is bold enough to take for short stints in the woods even if its just for a walk. This is pretty much all I do until I feel like they are old enough to see a coon and start hunting.

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Re: Age to start pups / success rate

quote:

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Originally posted by Dwils
Been a growing observation in my mind lately on success rates some guys have vs. Others with starting pups . There are guys that get a pup , kennel it up until 7 months - 1 year of age before the pup is messed with much and IMO it seems only maybe 1/3 of these pups even start . A few guys around my house are this way and it seems like they end up culling the majority of these pups if not all; also adding most of these guys only take these pups to the woods and turn them with ole Sally "if they are natural they will start" . . . But I can't help but notice younger kids and old men that constantly prank with pups from the time they are 6 weeks until they start , always have a nice started pup and they usually have one on a consistent basis ... And usually those make the better dog than the pup that was kenneled up until the verge of a year old . I guess I'm bored and after browsing through classifieds and seeing hundreds of litters on the way ... One has to wonder what happens with all these pups , are that many of them culls ? If we are producing that many culls we are doing something way wrong or many just shouldn't even attempt to buy pups . I would say a bit of both

So do most of you believe in "if it's natural it will start on it's own " or do you believe the more the pup is interacted with as a weanling on up the odds of success are way better .

For me .. It's #2 .. Just my opinion

---

I haven't been startin dogs for very long but always had a love for dogs. in my opinion I think it's best for as much interaction as possible from 6 wks old on up. I'm kinda lucky I got 6 kids that plain love a dog too death and we let our pups run loose till they start wondering to far. if I go squirl huntin I throw a couple pups in the truck just to walk along. If we go anywhere I an bring a dog along I take one or 3. Just look at it like potty training a house dog. some pick it up faster than others but if u stick at it. slowly but shorely with some patients most figure it out eventually.

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.

One of the keys to a dogs success is their environment. That means every interaction they have with something or someone has some type of effect on them. Good, Bad or Neutral.
Joe mentioned the genetics and what they are bred to do. He is 100% correct but how they are handled while their genetic predisposition is guiding them is very important.

From Experience you will learn what the pup is capable of. If you have one 4 months old that will bark his head off at a coon or you have one 4 months old that will run from a coon that doesn't determine what it will do at two years old. The one running from the coon just needs to be worked and brought along a different way. Don't just sit it in the pen. Walk it, talk to it, teach it basic commands. You build that bond and it helps it to get to the next level when it is mature enough.

I agree that working with them is much better than sitting in the pen. I have started several pups and some made it and some did not. I don't think there is one specific method that works every time but I also don't think you can go wrong by socializing them. Even if they never make a coon dog if they learn to lead and load and come when called then they will have a better chance because they are going to cause you less trouble. If you have a pup that is easy handled then you probably will be more likely to take it when you go to the woods. Although I have seen an old friend of mine buy pups back from someone at over a year old that had never really been touched and they sometimes turn out to be really nice hounds. Ability is either there or it isn't the hard part is deciding when to give up on one and start over. Some people are more patient than others and some people fall in love with the dog and are more likely to put up with less ability because they like the dog so much. The point of my post is I guess I would rather mess with one at a young age to socialize them and teach them commands but I don't see this making them tree more coons.

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Justen Cooper
660-351-4941
Cooper Creek Kennels
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I look at it this way why go through all the hassle of feeding and shoveling for a year if you aren't going to have fun with it??????

I think the secret lays in that people who are willing to socialize the pup, train obedience, introduce it to woods, water, fences, etc. have a larger investment in their pup. Those people usually are the same people who try to put their pup or young dog in more positive situations.

Positive outcomes = confidence. Confidence is the foundation to build better coon hounds. More can be done through building confidence than negative based training.

As far as genetics is concerned I believe that genetics sets the potential higher level and lower level that a hunting dog can reach. Like Bruce said above it is the environment that determines where within those limits that the dogs ends up being.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

I think letting them run loose until they start treeing squirrels and house cats usually gives them a head start in the woods then start taking them to the woods.And socializing them is a huge part of training a pup.. I have about an 80 percent start rate but not all of those suite. me!!! Lol

Re: Age to start pups / success rate

HI i been at this game for a long time. AN i have one thing to say do you want a pet .or do you want a coondog that will win

Start them when they are ready... All pups are different...

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Your question has several variables. I believe in starting them as soon as they get here. At 8 weeks, I've taken every pup I've had here to the woods with the old dog at night. During this time, if a pup has it, it should start to show. If they never get off the leash, they'll never get exposed.

Timing is the second factor... A young pup could be ruined forever just by running into a coon on the ground and getting whopped. They also could "flip the switch" over that experience and become the next world ch.

The key is exposing them to the optimal situation in the woods when working with them. Running into an optimal situation is most times LUCK from what I've found!

For example, how many caged coon didn't turn out how you had envisioned it turning out? Effects on the dog? Positive and negative?

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quote:

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Originally posted by HardcoreKennels
Start them when they are ready... All pups are different...

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quote:

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Originally posted by jculler8
Your question has several variables. I believe in starting them as soon as they get here. At 8 weeks, I've taken every pup I've had here to the woods with the old dog at night. During this time, if a pup has it, it should start to show. If they never get off the leash, they'll never get exposed.

Timing is the second factor... A young pup could be ruined forever just by running into a coon on the ground and getting whopped. They also could "flip the switch" over that experience and become the next world ch.

The key is exposing them to the optimal situation in the woods when working with them. Running into an optimal situation is most times LUCK from what I've found!

For example, how many caged coon didn't turn out how you had envisioned it turning out? Effects on the dog? Positive and negative?

---

Early starters vs. late starters

You have an occasional pup that no matter who is doing the training makes a natural born coon dog. To be successful training pups you have to have the ability to sense when that pup is ready to be hunted hard. A pup that is not ready mentally you can do more damage hunting them than leaving them at home. With that said most early starters are either natural born coon dogs or wind up being tree dogs......to much tree.
The best hounds I have owned were late starters that went from being almost culled to coon treeing machines almost overnight.

The secret to training is realizing when that pup needs woods time.

Then understanding when his light comes on and pouring the hunting to him.

Most pups are ruined by hunting them before they are ready or over hunting them just because they have started.