UKC Forums - Dna Analysis

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Posted by john guinn on 12-22-2008 04:25 AM:

Dna Analysis

how do u read a dna analysis i mean what is the deal with all the letters at the bottom does it prove anything askin because i have my dogs dna but its all greek to me

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 12-22-2008 02:10 PM:

It really means.....

NOTHING.

The genetic markers used in DNA analysis are nothing more than identification markers....

Lets say that fingerprint traits were genetic. You inherited 10 different characteristics from your mother, and 10 from your father. AA and Aa are the characteristics for the little swirl in the middle of your right index finger. AA means that you would have a very tight swirl, Aa means that you would have a smaller, more open swirl.....your have a 50% chance of having a tight swirl....you are going to get the A or the A from one parent, and an A or an a from the other parent.

The possible cominations here are AA and Aa.

The only thing that these genetic markers are used for in dogs is to determine parentage.

8th grade science class...Mendel's Square...

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Posted by DOUG CHEEK on 12-22-2008 02:17 PM:

JOE ----you can read my DNA ----DON'T NO ANYTHING

HAPPY HOILDAYS TO YOU AND THE GOOD LOOKING ONE --

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Posted by Cynthia on 12-22-2008 04:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
It really means.....

NOTHING.

The genetic markers used in DNA analysis are nothing more than identification markers....

Lets say that fingerprint traits were genetic. You inherited 10 different characteristics from your mother, and 10 from your father. AA and Aa are the characteristics for the little swirl in the middle of your right index finger. AA means that you would have a very tight swirl, Aa means that you would have a smaller, more open swirl.....your have a 50% chance of having a tight swirl....you are going to get the A or the A from one parent, and an A or an a from the other parent.

The possible cominations here are AA and Aa.

The only thing that these genetic markers are used for in dogs is to determine parentage.

8th grade science class...Mendel's Square...

It would be nice to know what, if anything, the letters stood far, as in your example. at least that way I could know color combos, ears, etc.

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 12-22-2008 04:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cynthia
It would be nice to know what, if anything, the letters stood far, as in your example. at least that way I could know color combos, ears, etc.

There is a project that is mapping the canine genome, and at the end of all of that project, someone could take a DNA sample, and test it for specific genes, and tell you that. But who want's to pay $1,000.00 for a DNA test?

The basic fact is that the test that we have done, does NOTHING other than look at a specif place in the DNA (which contains thousands and thousands of genes) to prove parentage...that's it...

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Posted by on 12-22-2008 05:04 PM:

Well actually it is parentage AND identification. Two things.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 12-22-2008 05:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well actually it is parentage AND identification. Two things.

Merry Christmas JiM,

Actually, the test looks at alleles that prove parentage, the results create an identification.....

But who's splitting hairs!

You guys nice and warm up there?

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by skyblu on 12-22-2008 05:20 PM:

Question

OKAY - so does that mean that 2 pups with identical in looks in the same litter could have IDENTICAL letters on their DNA certificates? Or is there such a situation with dogs?

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 12-22-2008 07:00 PM:

Re: Question

quote:
Originally posted by skyblu
OKAY - so does that mean that 2 pups with identical in looks in the same litter could have IDENTICAL letters on their DNA certificates? Or is there such a situation with dogs?

NO, it certainly does not mean that.

A little DNA lesson is in order. Dogs have 38 pairs of chromosomes, half of which they inherit from each parent. Each of these chomosomes are home to 50,000 to 100,000 pairs of genes.

a locus (plural loci) is a fixed position on a chromosome, such as the position of a gene or a biomarker (genetic marker). A variant of the DNA sequence at a given locus is called an allele.

Now, without going into a whole genetics dissertation, please understand these loci are broken down even further. What is used in dogs to establish parentage is known as micrsatellites, or predictable differences within each species at specified locations in the species.

What you received is a measurement of 9 different "loci" that were selected to establish parentage. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.....

There is no tie to behavior, traits, or actions. Just the fact that we can predict what will be passed on from each parent.

EXAMPLE

I had a dual sired litter a year or so ago. The pups had to be DNA tested as well as both the sire and the Dam before we could determine which sire for which pup....

Pup #1

Sire CD DE AB EF DE GJ CD BD BB BB XY(this one is sex )
Pup CD DD BC FG DE GG BC BD BG BB XY
Dam BC BD BC EG AE GI BE GD BG BB XX

Now....let's break this down a little....understand that we have picked 10 different loci out of as many as 3.8 MILLION available gene pairs....but this is enough to establish parentage.

If you look at the top row, that is the sire's DNA profile, the middle is the pups, and the bottom is the dam's. Know that for each of the locations, the pup will inherit one letter from each parent. If you follow this out, you will see that pattern.

Now, in the pup, let's take the second measurement...the pup is DD That means that if he (we know it is a he because of the xy pattern on the last measurement) is bred, he can ONLY pass on that D in that location.

Please understand that there is no correlation between "traits" and the parentage microsattlelites in dog DNA.

__________________
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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by coondogedog on 12-22-2008 07:12 PM:

Re: Re: Question

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
NO, it certainly does not mean that.

A little DNA lesson is in order. Dogs have 38 pairs of chromosomes, half of which they inherit from each parent. Each of these chomosomes are home to 50,000 to 100,000 pairs of genes.

a locus (plural loci) is a fixed position on a chromosome, such as the position of a gene or a biomarker (genetic marker). A variant of the DNA sequence at a given locus is called an allele.

Now, without going into a whole genetics dissertation, please understand these loci are broken down even further. What is used in dogs to establish parentage is known as micrsatellites, or predictable differences within each species at specified locations in the species.

What you received is a measurement of 9 different "loci" that were selected to establish parentage. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.....

There is no tie to behavior, traits, or actions. Just the fact that we can predict what will be passed on from each parent.

EXAMPLE

I had a dual sired litter a year or so ago. The pups had to be DNA tested as well as both the sire and the Dam before we could determine which sire for which pup....

Pup #1

Sire CD DE AB EF DE GJ CD BD BB BB XY(this one is sex )
Pup CD DD BC FG DE GG BC BD BG BB XY
Dam BC BD BC EG AE GI BE GD BG BB XX

Now....let's break this down a little....understand that we have picked 10 different loci out of as many as 3.8 MILLION available gene pairs....but this is enough to establish parentage.

If you look at the top row, that is the sire's DNA profile, the middle is the pups, and the bottom is the dam's. Know that for each of the locations, the pup will inherit one letter from each parent. If you follow this out, you will see that pattern.

Now, in the pup, let's take the second measurement...the pup is DD That means that if he (we know it is a he because of the xy pattern on the last measurement) is bred, he can ONLY pass on that D in that location.

Please understand that there is no correlation between "traits" and the parentage microsattlelites in dog DNA.

That certainly cleared everything up for me. LMBO!!

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Posted by blairforce1 on 12-22-2008 07:38 PM:

Joe

Where you said the pup could only pass on the "D" in this area because he is "DD" , does this mean dogs with a lot of same letter groups ( AA DD FF GG AA EE) Would be dominant reproducers due to only being able to pass on the one ..And I dont mean it would have to be a good reproducer , but dominant due to this......Hope you get what I am trying too ask here..
Thanks, Jim

Posted by on 12-22-2008 07:44 PM:

I think what Joe has said is that nothing,Nothing,NOTHING.....can be determined from those DNA papers aside from verifing parentage.

Posted by TREMOR on 12-22-2008 07:56 PM:

Re: Re: Question

quote:
Originally posted by Oak Ridge
NO, it certainly does not mean that.

A little DNA lesson is in order. Dogs have 38 pairs of chromosomes, half of which they inherit from each parent. Each of these chomosomes are home to 50,000 to 100,000 pairs of genes.

a locus (plural loci) is a fixed position on a chromosome, such as the position of a gene or a biomarker (genetic marker). A variant of the DNA sequence at a given locus is called an allele.

Now, without going into a whole genetics dissertation, please understand these loci are broken down even further. What is used in dogs to establish parentage is known as micrsatellites, or predictable differences within each species at specified locations in the species.

What you received is a measurement of 9 different "loci" that were selected to establish parentage. NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.....

There is no tie to behavior, traits, or actions. Just the fact that we can predict what will be passed on from each parent.

EXAMPLE

I had a dual sired litter a year or so ago. The pups had to be DNA tested as well as both the sire and the Dam before we could determine which sire for which pup....

Pup #1

Sire CD DE AB EF DE GJ CD BD BB BB XY(this one is sex )
Pup CD DD BC FG DE GG BC BD BG BB XY
Dam BC BD BC EG AE GI BE GD BG BB XX

Now....let's break this down a little....understand that we have picked 10 different loci out of as many as 3.8 MILLION available gene pairs....but this is enough to establish parentage.

If you look at the top row, that is the sire's DNA profile, the middle is the pups, and the bottom is the dam's. Know that for each of the locations, the pup will inherit one letter from each parent. If you follow this out, you will see that pattern.

Now, in the pup, let's take the second measurement...the pup is DD That means that if he (we know it is a he because of the xy pattern on the last measurement) is bred, he can ONLY pass on that D in that location.

Please understand that there is no correlation between "traits" and the parentage microsattlelites in dog DNA.

So Joe, if i bred a nice female and had a liter of pups and had them all dna'd and one of the pups dna markers matched 5 of the 9 to the mother this would still not say she would be more like her mamma?

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 12-22-2008 10:23 PM:

Re: Re: Re: Question

quote:
Originally posted by TREMOR
So Joe, if i bred a nice female and had a liter of pups and had them all dna'd and one of the pups dna markers matched 5 of the 9 to the mother this would still not say she would be more like her mamma?

Remember back in the days when the only test to prove parentage was blood tests that showed blood type?

That is the equivilant to this test, there is NO, I REPEAT NO correlation between this "genotype" and traits....knows as Phenotype.

Read the numbers....Each dog has 38 pairs of chomosomes, which are home to between 50,000 to 100,000 pairs of genes.

Now, if you calculate that out... that is somewhere between 3,800,000 and 7,200,00. A gene looks like this...

Notice that each of these genes has a short leg, and a long leg.... What we are looking for in Canine Parentage DNA testing is looking at the same location (loci) on the same gene in both the male and the female.

These Loci are broken down into bands.....such as these

If you think of these "bands", each of these are assigned a letter. What we are looking at is the markers used for parentage confirmation...a set of "bands" off of one gene out of Millions and Millions of genes....

So to say that a dog that gets more of these 9 or so markers out of millions from one parent or another and it will more closely resemble that parent...that's a stretch.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by TREMOR on 12-22-2008 11:53 PM:

oakridge

Thanks Joe, that makes me wonder how someone can tell me that ther dog is 70% fixed genticlly. Also i find this entire subject very intruging and it makes me wish i had the smarts to break the codes in the genetics of dogs to find those desirable traits. Thanks joe i always enjoy reading your post when i have time.

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Posted by blairforce1 on 12-23-2008 12:53 AM:

thanks

yeah, thanks Joe

Posted by Rip on 12-23-2008 01:08 AM:

You absolutely can NOT use those DNA tests to claim "fixed" anything.

That's why myself, Joe, and Larry Atherton just to name a few get on here and explain this several times a year a piece LOL.

We just don't want people being tricked by fake science.

The science to prove parentage is 100% real, but to claim these markers are anything but markers is just not true.

BTW, The above is an excellent tutorial that would rival some college genetics classes. Very strong work there Joe.

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Posted by DOUG CHEEK on 12-23-2008 01:10 AM:

professor vet MR. RICHARD GILL --ALWAYS TOLD ME ---he could get --size--color --hair coat--hunt --etc. but one think he could not always get was BRAINS in dogs

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 12-23-2008 01:26 AM:

Re: oakridge

quote:
Originally posted by TREMOR
Thanks Joe, that makes me wonder how someone can tell me that ther dog is 70% fixed genticlly. Also i find this entire subject very intruging and it makes me wish i had the smarts to break the codes in the genetics of dogs to find those desirable traits. Thanks joe i always enjoy reading your post when i have time.

Tremor,

There is now a fairly simple DNA test that can be ordered to show the "breed" of a dog...meaning that you can test the DNA to show how many different breeds influence your dog...that would be interesting in today's hound world.

There is also a lot of work being done in the canine genetic disease area...testing for hip dysplacia (trying to prove that it truly is genetic) and the seemingly genetic problems that border collies have with Ivermectin....

There has never been any genetic evidence that "ability" is inheritable....

Doug,

Coat color, size, coat type genetics are easy to breed for, they are visual queues that are not subject to interpretation, and there is a clearly understood system of "dominance".

The reality is that much of what we breed our hounds for is subject to "nurture", how a pup is raised, trained, and handled....as much as it is in breeding.

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UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Dogwhisper on 12-24-2008 04:33 AM:

"The reality is that much of what we breed our hounds for is subject to "nurture", how a pup is raised, trained, and handled....as much as it is in breeding."

nicely put Joe, that statement covers it all.

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