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-- What if? UKC rep.down grades your dog publicly (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=19402)

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why post this as ukc when another registry made that mistake

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keep them english and keep them looking up.
the rooster will crow again.

I would rather live
my life as if there is a God,
cell phone 607 316 8667
And die to find out
there isn't, than live my life

As if there isn't,
and die to find out there is

if your posting about something that was said as the result of the outcome of a show thats what your paying for when you enter a show the judges opion

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keep them english and keep them looking up.
the rooster will crow again.

I would rather live
my life as if there is a God,
cell phone 607 316 8667
And die to find out
there isn't, than live my life

As if there isn't,
and die to find out there is

ol saying...

regardless what registry or even what event.."if you can't say something nice? why say anything at all?" this is one topic that was covered at the bench show judges seminar. if you are going to give your reason for picking a paticular hound, on the bench, that day..then be complimentary to the other contestants as well. most people already know the hound's weak points..so why not be gracious enough to be polite. example..."i'm going with hound #2 as this hound has a nice topline". then maybe say.."i like the head on hound #3 as well". but whatever you comment and this board really seems to show it...better be a compliment and not a criticism. no one wishes to hear a negative reason publicly and the one's who aren't showing? they will remember the remarks as well. wanna bet??

I haven't seen many dog shows but I've been to a few cattle and hog shows and those judges will say straight up, over a microphone what they like and DON'T like about the animals. How else would you know what these judges are looking for?

You're exactly right, Jim. Those cattle and hog farmers are serious about breeding better cattle and hogs and they can take the truth. A steer or fat hog has one purpose and those folks know what it is.

we're talking coonhounds...

and being in that world for 30 years now...there is NO reason to give a negative remark publicly!!! and i won't. if you want to learn my reasons for picking a paticular hound over another...then ask. anyone can learn about conformation, after most any event. i've seen owners leave a show because of some judge's blantant remark. i've seen young people put to tears because of a judge's inconsiderate remark. i feel that showing a coonhound is alot of fun and it would sure be nice to feel that way when i lose. whether i agree or not on a decision. you pay for an honest judge. you ask for an honest decision. and if i read the rules right...you have the choice to ask a judge their reasons AFTER the class. why would anyone say'' dog # 2 is flat-footed and sway-backed??" why not make a compliment and say "dog #2 has a good shoulder? or a clean front end?" the other toss of the coin...some judges couldn't critique a dog if it bit em in the behind..so you get them saying something "off the wall" that really gets the owner or the crowd watching, to wondering if it was money well spent and a knowledgeable critic. you can learn just as much from compliment as you can from any criticism! think about the other person..and then think how you might feel. i like that "goat judge's" attitude...hope i can do equally as well. and johnD..it has nothing to do with what people can or cannot take!! it's called being just plain nice...nothing wrong with that. ok...you fellow bench show enthusiasts...how DO you feel on being told , out loud, your hound's faults? and why is it when a person receives a compliment..we don't see it on here? but when a judge makes a fault remark ? people are offended? which was original post..food for thought.

Give me a break!!!! You ever been to a 4H show? You got 8 year old girls showing 1200 pound steers and if that steer is too fat you better believe that judge will tell her that steers is too fat. If a kid can't control there animal the judge will tell them they should have met up with that animal 3 months ago instead of three days ago. I have never seen any of those kids leave the ring crying because their animal was publicly critizied, i HAVE seen plenty of them leave with their jaw set and mind made up they will do alot better next year.

other side...

it isn't what you say...but how you say it. maybe those judges, in hog and cattle, are more adapted to handle youngsters. maybe you should watch the goat or rabbit judges..or the chicken. yes..i've been involved in 4-H. i'll stick with the "give them a break"...

I showed hogs for a few years when I was a kid, and I never remember a judge being mean with his reasons but they ALWAYS gave reasons. It was a requirement. The judge didn't bother to talk about the hogs that didn't matter. He only discussed the top few and why he chose what he did. If the judge didn't mention a hog, it was safe to assume the hog wasn't worth the time and/or the faults were obvious.

Not requiring a judge to give reasons makes a bench show a waste of time, imo. What is it accomplishing?

I've seen more sorry excuses for dogs and crybaby handlers that didn't have a clue what their animal should be, at coonhound bench shows than I ever saw at livestock shows. Why is that?

What I remember about livestock judging was the judge starting with his reasons at the lower placements and working up to top placement with positive reasons. For instance:

I place this animal #4 and feel he just needs a little more finish. I place #3 over #4 because he has a stronger topline. I place #2 over #3 because he's smoother through the shoulder. Your winner today is such and such because he is the most balanced animal in the ring, showing proper finish.

Reasons are HUGE in livestock judging. Entire judge's classes are devoted to proper way to present reasons and college judging teams are graded on it. They are graded on whether or not they can remember the reasons for the placement of one class that they judged a couple months before. With that level of instruction it's no wonder the livestock industry has left the canine world in the dust in this respect.

judging team

As a youth I was very active on our county dairy judging team ,and reasons were more important that placing the cattle completely right .If your reasoning was sound your placings were also sound.

I don't believe that giving only negative reasons is productive but a judge should be not be afraid of explaining their placings to a exhibitor ,esspecially when asked by that exhibitor for the reason why they didn't place them higher. example

"you were showing a nice hound today but when compaired to the dog that won the class the winner had a more correct set of feet and legs." When the exhibitor follows up with "whats wrong with my dogs legs ". Then the judge should tell them exactly what breed standard calls for and how that particular dog varys from that standard. What would be wrong with that ,it may even give the exhibitor some clues on picking their next bench champion.

__________________
Sawblade Kennels/owner Kelly Hyde

Proud Breeder of the following dogs
GrNiteCh Sawblade Fiddle "no.5 historical female
QuadGrCh Yellow River Red Blaze
GrNiteCh Copeland's Red Hot Clyde
GrNiteCh Stone's Midnight Red Jake
NiteCh Brights Choctaw Night Time Sissy
NiteCh Sawblade Red Reckon
NiteCh Brasee Red Penny
NiteCh Nacalus Mandolin
Yellow River Fiddle II " good reproducer"
NiteCh Krasa Sawblade Quikstuf Bone
GrNiteCh Krasa Hair Trigger Hope
GrNiteCH Locked and Loaded Jake
GrNiteCh Moonlight Woody
NiteCh Sawblade Mac Truck " Jake and Hopes' brother"
NiteCh After Dark Spark " brother to Fiddle"
NiteCh Morgan's Boone " sister to Fiddle"
NiteCh High Water June " out of Reckon"
NiteCh Sawblade Timberline Rusty
Sawblade Ribbon,


They are bred with heart and drive included.

From a small kennel with Big results.

You all need to come to MN-

and have Leon Swing judge your dog/hound. He has always given reasons why he placed so and so over the other. Gives the good and bad points of each.
There are a "few" judges that call it the right way in the woods and give their reasons also, but than again there are way to many that don't want to step on toes and want to be "nice".

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OLD TIMER

Judges comments

I grew up on judging teams for cattle and sheep. I felt the reasons were very important as to why they were placed as they were. I felt compliment were helpful when possible and mentioning the things you would like to have seen better was also helpful.

As a bench judge I feel it is sometime important to say" I'm going with #3 today because I like his top line better even thought each in this class have some outstanding points too. " I feel the way you say it is the important thing.
Phil Gardner
Blazin Blue Kennels
Versailles, Mo.

If I lose to another in any competion, I always want to know why. Was it the animals fault, maybe it was my fault in not having my animal stand correctly. How is a person suppose to improve for the next time unless he knows what went wrong this time. I have gone to judges after an event and asked why I didn't win, not to fuss but to know what to do better next time. Of course like a lot of you are saying, it is how it is said. Don't just tell me that my dog is ugly, at least tell me he is physically challenged. lol

i am familiar with the horse shows in 4-h. and the judges always give reasons for placing one animal over another. but they are not mean about it. they say it in a way that does not discourage the child. they may say that the legs are straighter or the head a little better. i know in showmanship classes a judge will talk privately with each contestant and tell them how they may improve their handling or presentation of the horse. i have never heard blatant critisism from the judge publically..
even in adult classes i like to know where i went wrong but no one likes to be critized publically and i don't think to do so shows good taste. to say something privately or make a few suggestions would be appropriate. the idea is to learn not to dis courage. i know in our area not too many people participate in the bench shows and if a judge humiliates them more will drop out. and i feel bench is an important part of the comps so it should be in the best interest of the officials to make it a good experience for everyone.

Judging with comments

The way I always looked at it was.............. the veiws of the judge, whether it be beef, hogs, dairy, dogs or whatever. The judge is not intending to publicly critisize your animal in front of the crowd. What they are doing is giving you a tool to work with and improve what needs to be. Take what reasons are given and apply them to your specific program and see if things don't work out for you better in the future. It's constructive critisicm, not a public slam on you or your animal. If you choose to take the comments personally, you may be in for a long road ahead. jmo.

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Keep your viewpoint sharp on what truly matters............... and leave everything else a blur!

the best judges give clear reasons why one dog is better than the other at the time they make their decision,to all in attendance.

if they dont,i always figure they dont know.
if i watch a show i try to determine who the winner will be.im almost always wrong,but the only way i can learn is to have the judge explain why he picked another dog.
im sure every other rookie in attendance would like to know also.

my daughter did horse 4-h for 4 yrs and has shown horses for close to 10 yrs. she has now gotten interesting in showing coondogs. we have gone to several shows and she has picked the winners about 90% of the time. when she showed her horses she learned conformation by what the judge told her and what the judge said. yes it helps when the judge explains but there is a way to do it and a way not to do it. no one in that position should ever humiliate someone. but they should do their best to educate on correct conformation and showmanship.
I have to say that the shows we have gone to in our area the judges have been very helpful and have stated their reasoning for placements without being over critical.

my opinion is that i would prefer to here what the judge has to say. the why's and whatfor's would help me work my dog better or help me pick out my next dog. plus it would help people who maybe thinking about getting thier bench show license, to know what may make one dog stand out when there is two very close hounds being shown together.