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Scoring question

Dog A is treed for 125, 3 minutes is up and the cast is going to the tree. Dog B and Dog C start treeing on what sounds like the same tree. The handler of Dog B trees his dog knowing that his dog has to be split treed when they get in there or he is minused. The handler of Dog C also trees his dog within 2 minutes of Dog B being treed.

When the cast arrives at the "tree", Dog A comes out to the cast about 20 yards and then takes a loop back toward the other 2 dogs and gets on a tree 5 feet from the other 2 dogs. This tree is the only tree that the cast sees him on as they didn't see which tree Dog A left. The cast votes to minus Dog A for being off the tree.

Coon is seen in the tree that dog B & C were on when the cast arrives.

How do you score all 3 dogs?

I have my opinion but want to see what other people have to say about it.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

First and foremost, was it considered one tree or two?

Dog A was minused for leaving the tree? How was that decision made on the information you gave?

This may have been 100% correct or it could have been 100% bs, need better information.

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill(Chew)
First and foremost, was it considered one tree or two?

Dog A was minused for leaving the tree? How was that decision made on the information you gave?

This may have been 100% correct or it could have been 100% bs, need better information.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Did dog A meet the handler off the other trees?

Why did you NOT determine if it was to be scored as one tree or two? Remember that UKC policy is there is only one coon, one track, and one tree until proven different. Dogs B&C would be considered on dog A's tree until proven different. You did not prove that they were on a different tree.

In my opinion dogs B&C should have been minused for being treed on dog A's tree.

This sounds to much like the dog B's handler was going to claim that dog B was on a different tree and that dog A moved to dog B's tree. His claim was made easier by dog A meeting the cast off the tree.

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Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Bill,

I was a spectator on the cast. I've been out of competition hunting for awhile and just wanted to go on a cast again and see if that fire to compete would come back.

On that note, some of it did, but then I also saw the side of competition hunting that I don't like. But one thing for sure, knowing the rules and how to apply them can be lost in the "heat" of the moment. lol.

I knew when I posted the question, that one thing that would be discussed would the dog meeting the cast off the tree. Being as the rule states that a dog can meet the cast "a short distance" always brings into question what a "short" distance is. What is "short" to one person isn't "short" to another. Once the cast members see a dog meeting them, and if the cast members determine what "short" is, then how the dog goes back to the tree always seems to get questioned. Did the dog put his nose on the tree, did he hustle back to the tree, or did he veer off and around a little bit to get back to the tree, and how long did it take to get back to the tree are all questions that each cast member has their own opinion on when it comes to meeting the criteria of a dog getting leeway per the rule of 11 (b) After Arriving at Tree. After three (3) minutes, first dog’s tree may be scored. Dog should not be minused tree points if he comes back a short distance to meet handler if dog goes back in and trees satisfactorily.

With that said, the judge minused the dog and the other two handlers backed the judges decision, right or wrong is immaterial as we all know that situations like that are judgement calls and a MOH, a panel, or UKC are not going to overturn a judgement call.

My opinion is that once that Dog A showed another tree that he would have had to have been treed back in at some point on a "separate" tree. I also know that I would have waited if it were my dog before I did that until after it was determined whether the tree one going to be considered as one tree or two. It was a 4 dog cast and Dog D was about 300 yards away running a track so if Dog A had been retreed the cast would have had to wait 3 minutes to handle him on a separate tree.


An important note in this discussion, and how to score the dogs, is that it was never determined what tree Dog A came off of to get minused from. So what is the "Root" tree. I have my opinion on that as well.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Dog a minused 125 20 yards is way too far to meet off a tree tree. Dog a can be retreed but absolutely not be handled til his 3 is up Dog b stays at 125 and c 75 and plussed.

Imo way it sounds they were split treed considering Dog a went right back to his tree and not the other. But 20 yards is just way to far 10 maybe 15 feet is short distance to me but I don't tolerate 1 that comes off the tree for anything if I gotta feed it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nickhagerman
Dog a minused 125 20 yards is way too far to meet off a tree tree. Dog a can be retreed but absolutely not be handled til his 3 is up Dog b stays at 125 and c 75 and plussed.

Imo way it sounds they were split treed considering Dog a went right back to his tree and not the other. But 20 yards is just way to far 10 maybe 15 feet is short distance to me but I don't tolerate 1 that comes off the tree for anything if I gotta feed it.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Think it thru, five feet might not be far enough to have a split tree, most trees have limbs and branches that may or may not reach into/near branches of the other tree, unless they're telephone poles I'd say same tree, judge should have determined that first, just hard to vision without being there. Five yards it's possible, five feet not sure , judges decision I believe

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I am pretty sure the limbs did not touch. So let’s go with that scenario.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

If the dog came far enough that you never seen it on the tree it should be minused... the other dogs should go in for 125 and 75 cause they were declared split when they were treed and were not on dog a’s “tree”. Just my opinion how it should be scored.

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My opinion is that since all dogs were treed on what sounded like the same tree, you would have to score it initially as if they were not split treed. When the cast arrived at Dog B & C's tree, it was the only tree that a dog was showing to be treed on. The cast had to assume, after the fact, that Dog A was on the tree beside them all the time that he was treed and there was no way of knowing that.

If all 3 dogs had been treed within the 3 minutes the dogs would have been scored in the order that they were treed in, Dog A would have been minused 125 and Dog B and C would have been plussed their called tree points.

Dog A going back in the area and showing a different tree is where the confusion in the scoring starts to show up. If he had went to the tree where Dog B and C were treeing then there would be no confusion.

Dog A should have never been handled until he was treed again or the cast determined that the tree Dog A was now showing and the tree that Dog B & C were on were going to be scored as one tree. If they weren't considered one tree then Dog A would have had to have been treed and waited 3 minutes before he could have been treed since Dog D wasn't at the tree.

If Dog A had been treed again, and the two trees were then considered as one, Dog A would have had to have been minused again for being treed after the 3 minutes and not being on a "split" tree.

There were several different rules in action in a very short amount of time when all of that happened. It does make for some interesting conversations and I'm sure it would have been handled several different ways depending on different cast members and their interpretation of the rules.

__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

Minus them all, throw the score card in the trash and tell them this was a huge wast of time and to bring better dogs.

__________________
GRNTCH PKC SCH BACKWATER BANJO

quote:

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Originally posted by rob thompson
Minus them all, throw the score card in the trash and tell them this was a huge wast of time and to bring better dogs.

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John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

quote:

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Originally posted by rob thompson
Minus them all, throw the score card in the trash and tell them this was a huge wast of time and to bring better dogs.

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So what did the cast do?

So what did the cast do?

quote:

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Originally posted by Rockyford
So what did the cast do?

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__________________
John Smith
Ohio Valley Bluetick Kennel

My 2 cents and alot of why I don't comp hunt anymore. 20 yards(60 feet) isn't that far if it's thick. No-one saw what trees the dogs were on from 60' away. I'd say must have been thick. Dog made a round about back to tree.. if it was that thick, might have been easiest way back to tree. 5' apart, trees of any size would branches touching the trunks of each other. Should have been checked for 1 tree.
Cast vote determined to minus dog cause 60' was too far. That should have been determined before handlers got to the tree. Did judge then inform handler, dog had to be retreed? All this should have been done before shining tree.
My 2 cents, cast saw, what should have been 1 tree, an opportunity to minus dog and move up. Had it been their dog, would they have voted the same way?
JMO

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quote:

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Originally posted by harleydan1956
My 2 cents and alot of why I don't comp hunt anymore. 20 yards(60 feet) isn't that far if it's thick. No-one saw what trees the dogs were on from 60' away. I'd say must have been thick. Dog made a round about back to tree.. if it was that thick, might have been easiest way back to tree. 5' apart, trees of any size would branches touching the trunks of each other. Should have been checked for 1 tree.
Cast vote determined to minus dog cause 60' was too far. That should have been determined before handlers got to the tree. Did judge then inform handler, dog had to be retreed? All this should have been done before shining tree.
My 2 cents, cast saw, what should have been 1 tree, an opportunity to minus dog and move up. Had it been their dog, would they have voted the same way?
JMO

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__________________
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