UKC Forums - using dna to pick crosses

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Posted by Black Ash Bawl on 11-13-2016 10:25 AM:

using dna to pick crosses

I have seen where people say the had a dna test done and that is how they picked the stud dog.. The one's that I have seen this for is SMITHHURST B&T's.. Has anyone had experience with this..

Posted by River Birch Run on 11-13-2016 02:03 PM:

The DNA that we get done for UKC or $kc will not tell you anything other than if the sire and the dam are who you say there are, the color of the hound and rather it is in fact a coonhound. It doesn't even tell the difference between the breeds. That's why the color DNA is there. You can send DNA off to other places with a nice pile of money and get DNA results back on some heath issues, and far more in depth as too what color coats and type of hair and dog has in its genes. However, they have not found the genes that are important to coonhunting, such as tracking, treeing, drive and things like that.

It was a myth yrs ago that the more double letters in the dogs DNA the better the dog will be.

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Posted by Donnie Stevens on 11-13-2016 02:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by River Birch Run

It was a myth yrs ago that the more double letters in the dogs DNA the better the dog will be.

That's right. Buzz Lynch was on that kick the last time I was down there. I think if my dog had one more set of double letters I woulda won the lotto lol

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Posted by nitehunter2004 on 11-13-2016 04:19 PM:

Double letters means a dominant trait, more double letters means he/she will reproduce that trait, you never know what that trait will be till you make 2 crosses, could be, tree, track, color, mouth, walks in his own poop, pace the kennle, jack the tree, shi, mean Exc Exc. but it will not make your dog any better only means he/she will reproduce that trait.

Posted by Bruce m. Conkey on 11-13-2016 04:28 PM:

Night hunter is a double HH in one dog the same as a double HH in another.

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Posted by nitehunter2004 on 11-13-2016 05:00 PM:

Re: .

quote:
Originally posted by Bruce m. Conkey
Night hunter is a double HH in one dog the same as a double HH in another.

No.

Posted by HOBO on 11-13-2016 05:59 PM:

There is NO way to breed by the DNA sample they use to determine parentage.

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Posted by nitehunter2004 on 11-13-2016 06:12 PM:

I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine cause I disagree.

Posted by Rip on 11-13-2016 07:58 PM:

HOBO is right.

I have some formal study in Genetics, there is another on here named Larry Atherton that has forgotten more about genetics than I have learned but here goes.

The markers we use to determine parentage are just that MARKERS. They are not even genes.

That marker can be on several different genes.

That marker may be on a gene for toenail hardness, gut motility, or any other non hunting related thing.

It is just a way of checking parentage.

Now one day someone may come up with a DNA profile that is linked to performance or color or something, but as of now it doesn't.

Besides, most of the traits we look for are multi gene traits anyway, and how much is genetics vs enviornment?

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Posted by HOBO on 11-13-2016 08:13 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nitehunter2004
I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine cause I disagree.

IF we don't know what they are how can we use them for breeding?

Posted by rob thompson on 11-13-2016 08:34 PM:

Simple if a dog suits you and has all the traits that you are looking for, and then is stacked with double letters then there is a better than average chance it will reproduce its likness or atleast something that suits you. Or atleast i would believe it would. I do believe this could be a very useful tool in breeding dogs.

Posted by yadkintar on 11-13-2016 08:41 PM:

I am like hobo I tried the dna thing I even bred my top female back to her grandpa that was a coondog dna was crammed full of double letters worst bunch of duds I ever raised.

Posted by rob thompson on 11-13-2016 08:53 PM:

I dont know im not an expert but ill never knock a man for trying.

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 11-13-2016 09:02 PM:

A double letter is nothing but a percentage of a trait, 5 double letters will give you more chance because that trait will be dominant, you are rite we don't know what that trait is till we breed, if you like it and will improve your blood then find a female that will double up or water it down, that's done by doing your homework on what the female has been bred to versus how her pup turned out, Rat was a dominant stud of tree power, the people that understood this and some just lucky put him at the top, others just raised and sold pups that would tree.

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Posted by HOBO on 11-13-2016 09:17 PM:

I understand what you are saying Nitehunter... BUT we don't know what those letters mean. Doubling up on them does not mean you are gonna get traits you like. There is no way to know what those letters stand for.

I agree you need to breed for dominate traits and I try to do that with my breeding program. BUT I don't use a dna sample when deciding on what to breed.

Posted by Rip on 11-13-2016 11:56 PM:

Scientifically there is no way that the 10 little pairs on the DNA profile could help.

First of all there are thousands of genes.

Humans have between 20,000 and 25,000 genes split across 23 chromosomal pairs while dogs have around but the same number spread across 39 chromosomal pairs.

Now these letters ARE NOT GENES, they are just part of a gene that they tag. Dogs have 2.8 BILLION, yes BILLION of these letters spread across their chromosomes.

So we are going to take 20 letters out of 2.8 billion and get some kind of result that is consistent, when those 20 letters are not even the same 20 across dogs (they have to pick different ones if they can't make a decision so it is even less reliable.)

For human genes we have some diseases down to the actual gene, but that gene is a combination of those letters, not a single letter so you couldn't even check a human for one of those diseases based on the 10 pair DNA profile we use.

Here is a link to the info above. http://genetics.thetech.org/ask-a-g...og-vs-human-dna

Breeding coondog to coondog and breeding traits is the best thing we have as of now for breeding.

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Posted by nitehunter2004 on 11-14-2016 12:10 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
Scientifically there is no way that the 10 little pairs on the DNA profile could help.

And global warming is Americas biggest threat! Hands on experience says different, but I'll keep doing what i do and you do what you do,

Posted by Rip on 11-14-2016 01:32 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nitehunter2004
And global warming is Americas biggest threat! Hands on experience says different, but I'll keep doing what i do and you do what you do,

I didn't tell you to stop what you were doing. I was trying to give some actual information and the reason why 20 letters out of billions of letters can't predict anything. The guy that posted this wanted information and I gave him information.

There is actual scientific data against global warming. That is a theory and it is more religion than science. No problem with that.

But no matter who you are you can't beat math. Odds are odds. Otherwise everybody would win the lottery. Matter of fact the odds of winning the lottery several times over is much less than the odds that the specific 10 markers used (even if they were the same for every dog which they are not) have any bearing on actual hunting traits.

People pick coondogs based on many things, the color of the mouth, dew claws, the size of the pooper. They are all convinced their way works. I won't argue it does or doesn't.

However I will argue for the scientific method and actual science and that's why I put the info out.

No offense was meant, and I wasn't trying to tell anyone to stop the way they pick dogs etc. Just giving the information including the whys.

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Posted by yadkintar on 11-14-2016 10:56 AM:

But then comes along a dog like sacket Jr , rat, or bone that throws workable dogs ( winners) off of anything they are bred to now if a guy could figure that out he would be rich I don't have that much time left but I did own a reproducer like that he just did not get utilized like them time we got it figured out it was to late.

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