UKC Forums - Training question....Treeing in the hole

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Posted by Jmiller85 on 11-21-2016 04:10 AM:

Training question....Treeing in the hole

My young female 14 months old is wanting to stay at the hole.
She can run and tree her own coon and is coming a long well.
What everyone's advice in this situation.

Posted by Rip on 11-21-2016 04:16 AM:

Correct her for treeing in the ground. Nothing good comes from treeing in the ground. People that don't live in the mountains don't understand that coons go in the ground much, but they do.

Break the dog from the ground or you will regret it (lose her in a cave, sink hole etc). Besides why would you want to walk all the way to the top of the mountain to look at a hole in the ground.

It won't stop her from treeing in trees.

Most of the time they will just locate a hole and then move on after they are broke so you know what happened.

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Posted by JiM on 11-21-2016 04:48 PM:

I agree with Rip, I treat a dog in a hole the same as a dog under an empty tree.

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-21-2016 05:17 PM:

I must be the oddball. I want my dogs to stay at a hole... Why you ask? I will tell you. Have a young dog blister a track out if a cornfield. Run it in a hole, so it just stops. Walks away or comes in. What did it run? Deer? Yote? How many would get shocked if it continuously did it? Good way to ruin a young dog. Maybe set back an outstanding prospect. Yeah, we run coon in holes. Some nights alot. Been out many times with snow on the ground with tracks all over, so no mistaking. When the track is finished, stay there. They did their job, my job is to get to them. And recut them. I open a can if worms Everytime I answer posts like this..lol... But after 46 years of Coonhunting, I am pretty set in my ways.

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Posted by JiM on 11-21-2016 05:27 PM:

To each his own Harley but if I have a pup so sensitive that it is set back or ruined because I broke it off something, that right there is all the reason i need to cull that one and move on. I don't like sensitive dogs for the very same reason I don't like Democrats.

Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-21-2016 05:38 PM:

JiM, you put a shock collar on a dog, lay it out if you think it trashing and you call it sensitive? I could break a 15 year old boy off of girls with a shock collar. Give me a break, if they finish a Trac,k, be enough of a hunter to go them. Or get a different dog.
PS, you ain't breaking it off something, you are shocking it while running a coon.... a little different

Posted by DFred on 11-21-2016 05:46 PM:

This is a good subject for discussion so I'll give my 2 cents. I'll start by saying I do not break mine from holes. The reason is that I really have no reason too. If I lived in a hard area to hunt like mountains I probably would. Around here my dog puts a fair share in the ground. Probably like 2 out of 10. Most of the time 90% or so I can either see the coon or snap a pic with my phone and see it. In a comp hunt this will get you plus or circle most of the time. Now breaking one from holes can be done but usually in my experience the dog decides that it really doesn't want to leave but knows it will be in trouble if it stays in the hole so it pulls up on the closest tree. This usually gets you minused. I've seen this happen a lot when breaking a dog from holes. Around here is flat with lots of high creek banks and holes everywhere so they do go to ground a lot. And with the hunting pressure on the coons the ones that live go to holes and den trees and they remember that. I don't mind pulling mine off a hole. Id rather see a hole than a slick tree.

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Posted by JiM on 11-21-2016 06:57 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
JiM, you put a shock collar on a dog, lay it out if you think it trashing and you call it sensitive? I could break a 15 year old boy off of girls with a shock collar. Give me a break, if they finish a Trac,k, be enough of a hunter to go them. Or get a different dog.
PS, you ain't breaking it off something, you are shocking it while running a coon.... a little different

Where did shock collar come into all this? I rarely break faults with a shock collar. You can't break a fault without juice?

Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-21-2016 09:49 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Where did shock collar come into all this? I rarely break faults with a shock collar. You can't break a fault without juice?

Stopping a dog from doing what is was bred to do.... Either juice or stomping the monkey guts out if it. Especially if that coon is growing at them in the hole. Tell me, how do you break a dog from staying in a hole, with coon scent or a growling con. And keep it out consistently.. nicely..

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 11-21-2016 09:53 PM:

I love drawing dogs that have been shocked or whooped for getting in holes. Almost every time they will stay right up until the handler gets really close then peel out or come back to them which almost always results in minus points. I don't like or encourage my dogs to get in holes and I have never had one that did it very often but if the coon is in there they need to stay until I get to them.

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Posted by JiM on 11-22-2016 12:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
Stopping a dog from doing what is was bred to do.... Either juice or stomping the monkey guts out if it.

Wow! All I can say is I sure don't train like you do!

Posted by Rip on 11-22-2016 01:02 AM:

I never had to do much but scold them and switch them a little bit. They eventually got to where they would locate the hole and then go on and get another coon going.

Sometimes it gets you minused if they can't strike within the time needed depending on registry, but that's better than the alternative of walking 1/2 mile up the mountain to a hole in the ground.

Or like I have had to do before, get a back hoe and dig the dog out of the ground/tile.

If I lived somewhere it was rare for a coon to go in the ground and that didn't have the sinkholes like we do around here then I wouldn't break them either. These holes around here you ain't getting nothing but circle for them cause they are rock and go everywhere.

I remember a friend of mine that thought it was silly for me to break my dogs from a ground hole. He only made 5 or 6 ground holes a year where he lived. He came to my area for an RQE one year. He had a pretty well known stud that had done some big winning. He called me and said that he knew why I broke them now. He and another pretty big name dog drew out with one other dog and a local dog. The local dog was the only one broke off holes. Their dogs were caught on three holes that were all circled, the local dog located and went on and made trees. They got drilled.

He still didn't break his dogs cause he didn't hunt that type of terrain where he is from, but after one night he understood why we did LOL.

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-22-2016 01:33 AM:

I understand why some do. But Under river banks, shallow holes, a coon growling at them. I can call mine out when I get 25' away, but if they don't come out, they are nose to nose with it. No, JiM you don't train like I do... But I did ask how you do it nicely? I just may try it... But until I know.. I will walk.
BTW, 3 nights ago, dogs drug one out of a hole with us standing right there. Up under a river bank. So, nose to nose, how can you break them?

Posted by ringtail on 11-22-2016 03:59 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by harleydan1956
...... Either juice or stomping the monkey guts out if it. Especially if that coon is growing at them in the hole. Tell me, how do you break a dog from staying in a hole, with coon scent or a growling con....

You don't have to stomp the monkey guts or shock them..... I had a nice blue female very smart dog..... When she treed in the ground I went to her no petting, no stomping, nothing, I walked up to her snapped the lead on her and walked back to my truck and either cut her loose again or loaded and moved on. It only took a few times and she quit on her own. I knew when she was treed in the ground (I could tell by her bark). She would tree for 4 or 5 minutes and come back to me, I'd cut her again or load and go.

I also had a B&T that someone had broke from treeing in the ground (I'm guessing by stomp or shock, don't know), but he was broke. When he treed in the ground, he'd wait til you got close and he'd jump on the closest tree to him. Didn't matter if it was was a 36"oak or a 3" sapling, whatever was close by.

All I'm saying is the same thing JIM is saying, stomping and shocking is not the only way to teach a dog.

If treeing in the ground don't matter to you don't do anything. If it does you have options that don't require a shock collar or steel toed boots.

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Posted by Preacher Tom on 11-22-2016 04:15 AM:

Only thing that I would add to the statements about shocking is that you can turn it down to where it is only unpleasant and it can be one of the most humane and effective training tools we have.

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Posted by qchounds on 11-22-2016 03:20 PM:

if the coon is there, I want my dog to stay no matter where that is- in a tree, a hole, under an old car, or in the rafters of the barn...

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Posted by harleydan1956 on 11-22-2016 03:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by qchounds
if the coon is there, I want my dog to stay no matter where that is- in a tree, a hole, under an old car, or in the rafters of the barn...

Some of us think this way.

Posted by JiM on 11-22-2016 04:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by qchounds
if the coon is there, I want my dog to stay no matter where that is- in a tree, a hole, under an old car, or in the rafters of the barn...

That's why there is no stock answer to this question. Obviously, if the dog can see the coon, they are gonna stay, I doubt I could break one of staying when they can see the coon and why would I want to?? But when I walk into my dog and find her digging in a hole in the ground, that's lesson time right there. My experience has been that if you allow them to dig, they will dig too often. I've seen very few hunts won with a dog in the ground but I've seen plenty lost that way.

One things for sure, if you gonna let'em stay, they darn sure better stay till handled. I'd rather mine locate and move on.

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