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Hound Dog Theory

Just bored but also a little curious as I have over the years though about this and wondered what other roundsman thought.

It is my theory that the younger a male pup starts running and treeing both by himself and with other dogs, the more likely it is that this pup will become jealous at the tree.

Now what mean by that is this; A male pup that starts running and treeing at say 4 months of age, is 4 times more likely to become tree aggressive than a pup that starts at 8 months of age. A male pup that starts running and treeing at 5 months of age is 3 times as likely to become tree aggressive as a pup that starts at 8 months of age, and a male pup that starts at 6 months of age is 2 times more likely to become tree aggressive as a pup that starts at 8 months of age.

So my question to those of you who have raised and trained a few pups over the years, what has been you experience when playing with early starting pups???

Can you name a few that started before 7 months of age that went on to become quality stud dogs that didn't reproduce tree aggression. I'm a little curious and a little bored with this internet coon hunting as I wait to get my knee brace fitted so that in the not too distant future I can get back into the woods by myself and start coon hunting LOL!!

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

I believe aggression to be the most misunderstood trait by this community and our culture. Just my opinion largely based on books I have read and mentors I have been mentored by.

I think tree aggression often comes from dominance and possessiveness left unchecked. Much like 2 pups left playing over a bone in the backyard until one establishes dominance over the other there will be some jockeying for possession over the bone. To me it's no difference with a coon. If trained properly typically imo, the dog can be taught to share the tree with other male dogs.

What your stating to me seems to be that the more tree a dog is bred with the more frustration that dog will be flooded with while treeing because they can not get the quarry at hand. From my standpoint if you take a dog bred like this, and put it with your average trainer who has been mentored by guys that trained hounds from way back in the 70s or whenever. Between the petting,squalling, hang ups,caged coon etc etc they can really compound the frustration felt by the dog. Instead of teaching the dog to control his frustration and drive, they are enforcing it.
Much like an old lady who cuddles her barking toy yorkie, instead of using proper correction. It's amazing really dogs are so genetically pliable that even our abilities as trainers haven't quite been able to keep up with them.

So yes I would agree with your statement that natural tree dogs will be more likely to begin show poor behavior from an over abundance of frustration at the tree. However with good proper training I believe those frustrations can be curbed significantly, if not completely. I also believe it is easier to teach a tree dog to tree with manners and work as a team then it is to teach a dog with little or no tree, to start to tree.

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

I really only know the life history on one aggressive dog and that is because I owned it. I have been around or seen/hunted with many dogs that were aggressive at the tree. First off, I will say this...the worst tree fighters I have ever seen were always females. I have seen some males that were bad, even one that would run back off the tree and bite the first person to get there.
I can't correlate early starting with tree aggression, but I haven't seen very many late starters that were mean at the tree. Your theory could be right.
I have heard other houndsman talk about high strung type dogs that bark a lot and pace back and forth being such hard tree dogs that they pull up slick too often and they say many of these types are also tree aggressive. I have wondered a lot about that connection.
I have a dog now that tries to be a barker and will pace a little. I don't allow the dog to just stand in the kennel and hammer so I don't know just how bad it would possibly be. This dog started pretty early, like 6 months but is not a blow down, chewing, jacking, slick treeing idiot. She is very accurate and trees with a loud slow steady chop. Not the fastest track dog either but pretty fast. This dog has to be taken off the tree with a leash.
The other dog I have was a late starter, never barks in the kennel and is very intelligent. He doesn't exactly lock the tree and stay like he should yet. Of the two dogs his pedigree is more known for tree power. Both dogs were pretty easy to get to stop trashing and neither dog has shown any kind of ill manners or aggression at all.
One thing that I believe is cut in stone...no matter when they start, aggressive tree dogs are born not made and there is no cure. If you think there is you are fooling yourself. In fact, tree dogs {period} are born not made. You can help bring it to the surface when they are getting started but you can not change it to the better and I don't even know if you can beat it out of them. Genetically programmed instinct is a very hard if not all but impossible thing to alter.

Great feedback guys. I really appreciate the different perspectives. I agree with msinc that (the real bad) aggressive tree dogs are born. And when I say real bad I mean a dog that will NOT allow another dog to tree beside of it. They make the other dog tree on the back side of the tree or completely off the tree.

Fisher13- Interesting assessment of what may initially cause the tree aggression (jealousy) I never thought of it that way but there certainly may be some merit to what you are saying. If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel a dog gets frustrated at the tree from not being able to get to the coon and that is what causes the dog to lash out at another dog. Not sure I'm in total agreement with that, but I can see where that could cause some problems around the tree.

For the rest of you, Please feel free to weigh in. I like to hear from different folks on their perspective of what/when to start a pup and the things to watch out for along the way.

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Rocketman55
Great feedback guys. I really appreciate the different perspectives. I agree with msinc that (the real bad) aggressive tree dogs are born. And when I say real bad I mean a dog that will NOT allow another dog to tree beside of it. They make the other dog tree on the back side of the tree or completely off the tree.

Fisher13- Interesting assessment of what may initially cause the tree aggression (jealousy) I never thought of it that way but there certainly may be some merit to what you are saying. If I'm understanding you correctly, you feel a dog gets frustrated at the tree from not being able to get to the coon and that is what causes the dog to lash out at another dog. Not sure I'm in total agreement with that, but I can see where that could cause some problems around the tree.

For the rest of you, Please feel free to weigh in. I like to hear from different folks on their perspective of what/when to start a pup and the things to watch out for along the way.

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

I've started several pups over the years. Have never run into an ill one, have seen a few that were just wired up and wanted to bite at the other dogs the first few times we did training. It didn't take much and they were over that and just treed like they were suppose to. I've never seen a correlation with the age of when one starts with aggression. I started a male pup in August of 2013, he was four months old, treed his own coon at 8 months old, you can put him on a tree with anything and you won't have any problems. I started him with his litter mate sister and she was treeing her own before him.

As far as jealousy, I've seen dogs that were jealous, but we're not aggressive, they just wouldn't tree with another dog that treed ahead of them. If they treed first then anything could tree with them.

I would think you might be able to spot an aggressive type jealousy over the food bowl when they are pups.

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Mike Laster
540-392-2441
pastorlaster@aol.com

I agree you can spot the jealous dogs for sure around food. It kinda depends on what they are jealous of. I run my dogs for exercise just about everyday. I sometimes take the two worthless little house dogs along. I have a Jack Russell that lives to race me down the gravel road on my 4 wheeler. When we first take off he tries to attack every other dog in sight because he don't want anything to get ahead of him. It wasn't a problem when the coon hounds were just young pups and couldn't keep up but their legs got longer and his stayed 3 inches. It's funny to watch, he really thinks he's the man, but the big dogs just sluff him off.
We are lucky to live in a time when many of the most severely aggressive lines of dogs have either died off or people stopped breeding them. I remember back in the 70's when I was a kid just starting out hunting and seeing dogs fight to the death at the tree. That thankfully didn't happen too often but I have also seen some fight until one of them passed out and had to be carried. The majority of coon hounds were grade dogs back in those days {at least around here} or they might have had papers but very few people sent them in.
If there is one thing we can thank UKC for it's helping to get rid of the mean dogs.
One thing I have often thought about is it seems like to me dogs that start later in many cases act like they have a colder nose but is it really colder or are they just calmer and more deliberate about running a track???

I have rasied and trained well over 30 pups in the last 15 yrs. 3 litters I kept all but one or two of the pups till they were started. The 1st litter I didn't know what I was doing I had only been hunting 3 yrs so I had A LOT to learn. I was lucky enough to be able to raise them on my moms farm. They were kept in a 1/4 acer kennel but most of the day able to run free while mom was out. By 5 weeks old mom was dragging them along on her daily mile walk down fence rows, through swamps and corn fields. She did this till they were 6 months old and had there 1st deer chase picture rounding up 7 deer chasing pups LOL. At 5 months old 2 of the male pups would bark at a cage coon, the 3rd male did at 6 months. I showed all the pups cage coon untill they bark at it. Then I don't show them coon again. The only problem I ever had was out of the pup that started at 6 months he was very agressive twards just one of the other males. I could not hunt them together. However, he was never agressive twards any other dog. I kept him till a yr old and gave him to a friend and He was titled out. He was a very loud hard bawl mouth tree dog, that liked to be alone.

2nd litter was 6 yrs later I knew a little more. This litter I took to the woods 4 days a week from 6 weeks on. I thought the whole litter was going to be culls. They would go out and get lost in the woods, but I could not get them to bark at a coon. The 1st pup finally did at 7 months old. I took him out with the old dog that same nite and he made every tree with the old dog. A month later the same happened with two more males. All 3 were blow down LOUD LOUD LOUD hard tree dogs. None of the males were ill and ould never start anything 2 of them would leave trees if another dog picked a fight. But one of the dogs that started at 8 months would put up with an ill dog for about 3 trees but come the forth he would flat out try and kill the mean dog. I had one male that never did bark at or treed a coon. He became very ill twards people other than me, and began to fight dogs that would check in while hunting. He had to be culled.

The last litter I had was last yr. this time I kept notes on each and every pup. They were taken to the woods almost everyday from 4 weeks old. I had one male that seemed much smarter than the other pups. He would always find a high spot to sit and watch everything going on. He was my pick of the litter. At 5 months old while on a day walk one pup treed a coon and the rest of the pups joined in. It was kill season so I dropped the coon out. Then I singled each pup out. Much to my suprize the pup I had picked got very agressive and begun eating up the old dog on every tree. I gave the pup to a friend that likes gritty dogs, but even he couldn't handle that much "grit". I have not seen any agression out of the remaining males that are now a yr. old.

From what I have seen they are born with that extra will to fight. Its just a matter of when it will pop up. I do belive that certain methods of training may bring it out of a dog that other wise wouldn't have been a fighter. So perhaps that pup that starts at 5 months old is being pushed and training methods used that will cause them to be ill. That pup that is a late bloomer we tend to not push and when they do make it, it was more natural and less training from the handler.

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Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

I realize that 1200 or more plus points is really not that hard to achieve when one dog is dominating the hunt. But as I mentioned in the initial post there was a second dog with close behind with almost 1100 plus points. The only way that can happen is several split trees, and split trees eat up hunting time. Just seems like a difficult feat to me, but I'm sure some of you guys have been places and seen things that I haven't. I'd love to hunt a spot like that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Nochoke
I realize that 1200 or more plus points is really not that hard to achieve when one dog is dominating the hunt. But as I mentioned in the initial post there was a second dog with close behind with almost 1100 plus points. The only way that can happen is several split trees, and split trees eat up hunting time. Just seems like a difficult feat to me, but I'm sure some of you guys have been places and seen things that I haven't. I'd love to hunt a spot like that.

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__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain

Just curious about the reproduction part of your question?

Wouldn't a male reproduce the same in his pups weather the dog started running and treeing at 4 months old or waited till it was a year old to start running and treeing?

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Sorry Marshall for any confusion. I'm not real good at wording what it is I'm trying to say. The reproductive aspect of my question was this;

Does anybody know of, or have owned a Top reproducer (Made the top reproducers list) That started running and treeing under 6 months of age??, That was a top competitor (won or placed high in a major event or two) If so, I'm curious as to how often that dog reproduced a pup that started under 6 months of age, and how many of those pups that started ended up being aggressive or Non-aggressive around the tree. This would help me to determine if my theory is even in the ball park or completely off base.

I have based my initial opinion on (only) the dogs that I have raised and trained over the years and am curious as to what other folks experiences have been. Having said that I have only raised and trained English hounds. Never in my life have I owned any other breed so my experiences are already narrowed to one particular breed.

I really appreciate these other folks perspectives on what it is they have experienced. With everyones input, I may be able to rethink my position and maybe change my theory just a little. But I have always been just a little fearful of a male pup that started under 6 months of age, for fear they may be too strong on the wood when they reach two years of age. Now I have seen females that never got too strong but most of my male pups that started that early were just a little too strong at times to stay out of trouble with another male dog that was just as strong on the wood as they were.

But hey, I am still learning about the best ways to train a coon hound and I have been doing it for 40 years or so.

Again Thanks to all of have posted their views and I look forward to many more posting on this subject.

__________________
Phone-740-767-2572
Dave Mayles
11210 Davis Road
Glouster, Ohio 45732
Home To:
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Hang'em High Holly
Gr.Nt.Ch. Hooper Ridge Rockets Top Gun.
Gr.Nt.Ch.Hooper Ridge Rocket
Gr.Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Dolly
Nt.Ch Hooper Ridge Queen
Nt.Ch Raw Dawg Rowdy
PR Tree Banging Buddy
HOOPER RIDGE ENGLISH-POUND FOR POUND THEY ARE ONE TOUGH HOUND!!!!

I don't think the age in which they start has anything to do with them turning out to be aggressive or jealous..................genes and handling determines that

__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

My experience has been that there's not a relationship between how early they start and becoming aggressive around the tree. And I agree with the others, that these traits are genetic, not necessarily learned.

Which means, you will see certain strains of dogs that are early starters and more aggressive. So they are coincidental traits, not a relationship between when they are trained and how aggressive they become.

For example... I've seen early starters that weren't aggressive enough, and prone to leaving their own tree, if someone aggressive me-too's.

__________________
David Schmidt
219-614-0654

"Does anybody know of, or have owned a Top reproducer (Made the top reproducers list) That started running and treeing under 6 months of age??, That was a top competitor (won or placed high in a major event or two) If so, I'm curious as to how often that dog reproduced a pup that started under 6 months of age, and how many of those pups that started ended up being aggressive or Non-aggressive around the tree. This would help me to determine if my theory is even in the ball park or completely off base."

I will say that you have to be careful regarding what you hear about big name reproducers...some people just always need an excuse why the other guy has a better dog. Many top name dogs are run down with the mean dog thing. They always win because they clean every tree, breed to them and get a litter of alligators, etc.
I have known a few big name dogs that were accused of this and it was a total fabrication. There is at least one current reproducer I have heard it about and the puppy I have does not have a mean hair on him and neither do the others I know of.

quote:

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Originally posted by msinc
"Does anybody know of, or have owned a Top reproducer (Made the top reproducers list) That started running and treeing under 6 months of age??, That was a top competitor (won or placed high in a major event or two) If so, I'm curious as to how often that dog reproduced a pup that started under 6 months of age, and how many of those pups that started ended up being aggressive or Non-aggressive around the tree. This would help me to determine if my theory is even in the ball park or completely off base."

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__________________
" an old wood burnin stove with no
natural gas "
405-471-7372

I have hunted with Honey Creek Spider several times which was high on the RPL. I don't know how young he started but I have hunted with several of his off spring that I know started at very very young ages. I have never seen a mean bone out of any of them or Spider. I think Spider was already in the hunts by 8 or 10 months old so im sure he was prob. an early starter. These dogs are usally very good hard tree dogs as well.

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Home of the Original Whiskey Hounds!
Rebecca Agee

I think most walkers will start fairly early if t the time is put into them. Walkers are quick learners and intelligent.

__________________
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you; that is the principal difference between a dog and a man."
Mark Twain