UKC Forums - i want to hear from the trainers

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Posted by stevenbry86 on 05-21-2014 08:47 PM:

i want to hear from the trainers

Just out if curiosity i want to know how the big winning dogs started out did they know the dog was amazing when it was under a year old? Or did it take them longer ti go on to make a dog? Or did some appear to be culls at a young age and went on to other people to make world winners?

Posted by bgs2009 on 05-21-2014 09:41 PM:

I too would like to hear how most got started. I think I read an article one time that said Mr. Clean was a late starter but Im sure those trainers can let us know for sure.

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Posted by rthompson on 05-21-2014 10:41 PM:

i think jeff travis wasnt happy with homer early on just kept on him till he turned the crank.

Posted by stevenbry86 on 05-22-2014 03:40 AM:

thats great that he didnt take him out back lol....

Posted by patches9452 on 05-22-2014 04:01 AM:

I don't consider myself really a trainer but some of the better dogs I have started were late starters

Posted by GA DAWG on 05-22-2014 04:21 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by patches9452
I don't consider myself really a trainer but some of the better dogs I have started were late starters

I must have a goodun here now then.

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Posted by blackflagginit on 05-22-2014 08:25 AM:

ive seen some of the best start both ways........some start early and just seem to have been born finished.......and some who were totally uninterested one day just explode and have all the talent in the world.

as a trainer ive also seen some "early starters" explode and go stupid.....or look like a million in a cast type situation and we totally worthless when hunted alone...and ive seen some "late starters" do the same or worse yet just never start.

what the greats always seemed to have to me was two fold.

1) they had a hook or "unusual special talent" in some form that showed early even if the rest of there skills wasnt so glitzy...and they were always VERY predictable from early on.....

2) they thrived on being pushed......ie the harder they were hunted the better they looked......again even if all the tools weren't in the toolbox yet

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Posted by on 05-22-2014 12:54 PM:

I can't train one but I can tell you how to. lol

I think the good trainers know what is acceptable and not acceptable behavior. In other words they have enough experience to know if the dog has the natural ability to make it and when it does make it will they have the qualities to make him a winner. In other words if your hunting a pup and look into his eyes and don't see something you can work with, then maybe you should move on.

I woke up this morning thinking about Divers and how they are graded due to the difficulty of the DIVE. Well we as trainers have a difficulty factor figured into our dog training. You need to realize this and if the difficulty factor is too high due to your environment then somewhere else the dog stands a chance.
What contributes to your difficulty factor is the dog and its natural ability. Your environment and the time you have to train a dog. Your experience with how to correct a dog as soon as some little thing starts to go wrong in the training process.

I will just take one thing. There is no way in the world I can correct a slick treeing dog and do a GOOD job of it.
By the time I chop my way through these woods to get to the dog it has already been treed a long time. Then these trees are so thick by the time you actually determine if it has a coon you have already spent too much time with your dog at the tree. Then you have to a brave soul to be in the middle of a bad swamp and to whip a dog off the tree only to know he is only going deeper into hell and you have to follow.

Another example on difficulty factor. Just Tuesday night I had a dog 12 months old fall into the swamp on a hot track and do a nice job treeing. We shot out the coon and we then decided to lay the coon at the base of the tree, walk her 30 seconds not a minute due to how bad the swamp was and send her on, then come back for the coon. We did just that and she left there looking for another one like a seasoned pro. Then shortly she got struck and had another track going. Problem was it was a DEER. The good news is I can fix that and it really didn't give me much heartburn. The difficulty factor on me fixing a deer running problem is a lot lower than a slick treeing problem down here.

Speaking of Jeff, I have never met him but from reading the boards you have to admire his determination. I started a little saying when faced with a decision on training a dog. "What would Jeff do"

Posted by dchartt on 05-22-2014 09:16 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by blackflagginit
ive seen some of the best start both ways........some start early and just seem to have been born finished.......and some who were totally uninterested one day just explode and have all the talent in the world.

as a trainer ive also seen some "early starters" explode and go stupid.....or look like a million in a cast type situation and we totally worthless when hunted alone...and ive seen some "late starters" do the same or worse yet just never start.

what the greats always seemed to have to me was two fold.

1) they had a hook or "unusual special talent" in some form that showed early even if the rest of there skills wasnt so glitzy...and they were always VERY predictable from early on.....

2) they thrived on being pushed......ie the harder they were hunted the better they looked......again even if all the tools weren't in the toolbox yet

What do you consider unusual or special talents in pups?

Posted by old ben on 05-22-2014 09:26 PM:

What do u consider Late ??

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Posted by hunter todd elk on 05-22-2014 10:00 PM:

My best dog I bought at 5 yrs old (Walker Male) and from what iv been told my multiple people is that he was running and treeing solo at 6 months old. The best dog iv ever started, and kept to finish never treed her own coon until she was 16 months old. The reasons I kept her is that she never did anything great but she always did the small things rite which gave me patience with her. Iv started a lot of dogs from people (All Breeds) and from what iv seen most of them start treeing solo around 11-16 mo old.

Posted by rthompson on 05-22-2014 11:35 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by dchartt
What do you consider unusual or special talents in pups?

locating ability just knowing a coon is there. thats a biggie! and a mouth you can hear that crack if u kno what i mean. yo can do a lot with a pup thats got these two things. but you cant just coon hunt a pup like this.

Posted by stevenbry86 on 05-23-2014 03:11 AM:

imo

in my opinion anything after two is for sure a late starter but im not at all saying thats a bad thing at all most of the time its not the dogs fault just lack of time in the woods but i dont believe a dog is in its prime till its four years old either but like i said thats my opinion..yah sure i have seen ten month old pups put up coon like a pro but still lacks the experience of those hard runnin bore coon...but what i wanted to get out of this post is i wanted to know about those world class dogs that consistently won big hunt...i want to know how they started out

Posted by blackflagginit on 05-23-2014 04:27 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by dchartt
What do you consider unusual or special talents in pups?

it could be any number of things accualy...just little kernels of talent that are evident from the first night in the woods or early on at least.......and things that a handler notices will be handy in a cast later on.......anything that sets them apart and more important can be relied on (read always act or preform in a predictable way in specific circumstance.)

unusual tone or type of mouth.....for example I had one that sounded like a turkey and a coyote was locked in a death match and the turkey was winning lol.......

had another dog years and years ago who no matter what when he sat down on a layup coon he never missed. Ive seen him stand on his hind legs in a pecan grove and locate..then slam treed hundreds of yards away and always had the right tree...when he tracked and treed it was a flip of the coin, but he never missed on those lay ups...and in a cast I KNEW plus points were comin on those. he had a habit of pulling these off the next drop after a screw up too lol.......

I remember a world champ from years ago who was about as likely to be found 5 miles away as he was 50ft treed...but no matter how hard he was hunted he kept on tickin. that came in handy by the final cast......(wasn't mine but was from this area)

another I hunted for someone who had a locate like a freight train and could absolutely be treed on it EVERY time.

I won a lot of casts with another because he was super accurate and just seemed to know when he was behind and almost always pulled a coon out of thin air it seemed when he was, usualy the opposite direction the rest of the cast was at the time too. It was like he could read the dang score card...

just anything that helps a handler predict whats coming next......sometimes there positive traits, and sometimes there not, but either way it helps know when to hold em and when to fold em (like one once who had a totally different locate on a possum,trash, or slick, and would be gone by the time you got there anyway. just smile as the rest of the handlers in the cast jockeys for tree position and wait for her to be half a mile deeper under a coon while you were shining the "set up tree" and tree her there instead

Posted by blackflagginit on 05-23-2014 04:45 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by old ben
What do u consider Late ??

im unusual in that I absolutely hate to hunt a pup with ANYTHING ELSE until its consistently running and treeing its own coon, with any "faults" addressed and fixed before hand......so a pup "joe" may have "started" at say 6 months by monkey see monkey do training.......I might not see "start" till 9-10+ months old. its a slower training method but one that keeps "learned faults" to a minimum as well.

good or bad I never realy to serious grades on a pup till about a yr old anyway.

that being said, im not going to feed one till its 2 or more before I see consistent performance, no matter what it has going for it.

Posted by blackflagginit on 05-23-2014 04:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by hunter todd elk
The best dog iv ever started, and kept to finish never treed her own coon until she was 16 months old. The reasons I kept her is that she never did anything great but she always did the small things rite which gave me patience with her.

theres a lot of good advice in this..........

Posted by goodtimekennel on 05-23-2014 01:37 PM:

a friend of mine hunted BID D when he was young and he needed shot , if i went hunting with my buddy and he took him you could plan on being out all night.

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Posted by Josh Michaelis on 05-23-2014 06:25 PM:

I am hunting the best dog I have ever owned at the moment. We ran coyotes with him and his littermates till they were 2.

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