UKC Forums - Calling Time Out While the 15 is Running on a Dog

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Posted by Grant Noeske on 09-20-2013 04:29 PM:

Calling Time Out While the 15 is Running on a Dog

If the 15 minutes for non-hunting are running on a dog, and another dog is trailing something (high speed) out of hearing and likely onto land the cast doesn't have permission to hunt on, can the judge call time out before the 15 minutes has elapsed and then restart the 15 minutes at the next drop?

So, for example, 10 minutes into the 15, the judge calls time out, the cast gathers up all dogs and goes to the next stop. The dog that had the 15 running on it would have 5 minutes left on the 15 when time in was called at the new spot.

DOGS WILL BE SCRATCHED
Rule 6(d) reads: Failing to make any attempt to hunt within any 15 consecutive scorecard minutes.

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Posted by JiM on 09-20-2013 04:31 PM:

Yes, that is the way I understand it.

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Posted by Baker on 09-20-2013 05:41 PM:

Look up the definition for "consecutive". It says uninterrupted. If you call time out then you have interrupted the 15 that was working on the dog. Looks like you would have to start it over again.

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Posted by JiM on 09-20-2013 05:50 PM:

More important would be what Advisor says about it . Read that.

Posted by Dale Young on 09-20-2013 06:12 PM:

What is the purpose for this rule ? I wouldn't think a dog not hunting would be much competition in a hunt . Thinking there must be more to it than that like maybe having to wait the 5 on every tree or something .
Seems like one less to deal with to me .

Posted by shawnfitzgerald on 09-20-2013 06:43 PM:

Would be a good way for a dog with plus to stay out of trouble there are ways to make a dog not hunt so there would be problems if not for this rule. But yes you can stop and restart the 15 or the 30

Posted by Richard Lambert on 09-20-2013 06:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
What is the purpose for this rule ? I wouldn't think a dog not hunting would be much competition in a hunt . Thinking there must be more to it than that like maybe having to wait the 5 on every tree or something .
Seems like one less to deal with to me .

Dale, sometimes the dog with the 15 running has already treed a couple of coons and is winning. The other dogs might have backed him/her on one of the coons and have a few + points. Now they are out running trash and the one dog has quit them and come back in. So if you scratch the dog that treed the coons and is winning then you are left with the win.

Posted by Buckshot on 09-20-2013 06:47 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Baker
Look up the definition for "consecutive". It says uninterrupted. If you call time out then you have interrupted the 15 that was working on the dog. Looks like you would have to start it over again.

Todd K covered that a few months ago.

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
The wording is consective but you are leaving out an important word. Consecutive scorecard minutes. Dog doesn't hunt the last ten minutes of the first drop. Call time out to move. When you call time back in again, it is the next consecutive scorecard minute. Much different than consecutive minutes in time in general.

http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthrea...eadid=928317422

Posted by wvcoonrunner on 09-20-2013 08:17 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Dale, sometimes the dog with the 15 running has already treed a couple of coons and is winning. The other dogs might have backed him/her on one of the coons and have a few + points. Now they are out running trash and the one dog has quit them and come back in. So if you scratch the dog that treed the coons and is winning then you are left with the win.

And sometimes its just an old potlicker that can't do it by itself so it just runs in on a track another dog started and pulls treed whether the coon went there or not. And sometimes they get lucky and have the meat but more often than not they have a handler that sees a hole or swears he saw eyes and does his best to convince the rest of the cast its there. Bad thing is I spectated on a cast where the judge was like this.

Posted by Ky Show Girl on 09-20-2013 10:09 PM:

why would you ever worry about dog that wouldnt hunt?
i guess he would be the easiest 1 to catch.what is the flip
side does he get a fresh start?

Posted by Grant Noeske on 09-20-2013 10:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ky Show Girl
why would you ever worry about dog that wouldnt hunt?
i guess he would be the easiest 1 to catch.what is the flip
side does he get a fresh start?

Some dogs will come in when another dog starts running junk. That's just the way they are. They know that the other dog is doing wrong and the want no part of it.

Let's say Dog A starts running a deer out of hearing. Dog B comes in and stands by you. The 15 starts on Dog B. If I'm handling Dog B, I know what's going on...and if Dog A is getting out of hearing, getting on posted land, crossing a road or whatever, then the rules say that time out should be called. Immediately. The flip side of that is you wait until the 15 over, scratch Dog B and then call time out....in which case you're punishing the honest dog (Dog B) while junky Dog A gets to stay in the cast. If you can call time out, catch all dogs at large, go to the next drop...and begin the 15 minutes where it left off (let's say 10 minutes had gone), then Dog B gets 5 minutes to prove that it'll go hunting (at least when another dog isn't running junk).

If I'm handling Dog B, I want time out called as soon as Dog A gets on posted land, on a road or whatever other scenario allows time out to be called. I also know that my 15 will begin at the next drop...where it left off on the current drop. Now, all the other handlers are going to want to see me scratched, so they'll want to see the 15 run out before time out is called. However, that's the wrong way to handle the situation...as I understand it...ASSUMING THAT Dog A is getting on a road, posted land or in some other kind of danger.

Just getting this cleared up in case if ever happens.

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Posted by Dale Young on 09-20-2013 10:35 PM:

I've seen one do the work and another get tree points by locking up while the other is checking but usually they were all out and couldn't be called for not hunting , maybe for not hunting good but seeing who does it best is the purpose . Just don't seem like it would be worth having a rule for . That rule book seems to keep growing . Always thought UKC was all about amateurs & newbie's being able to spend their entry money and checking it out without having to have a world class dog to do it or get started .
I know that's not the popular opinion with the regulars.

Posted by Grant Noeske on 09-20-2013 10:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Young
I've seen one do the work and another get tree points by locking up while the other is checking but usually they were all out and couldn't be called for not hunting , maybe for not hunting good but seeing who does it best is the purpose . Just don't seem like it would be worth having a rule for . That rule book seems to keep growing . Always thought UKC was all about amateurs & newbie's being able to spend their entry money and checking it out without having to have a world class dog to do it or get started .
I know that's not the popular opinion with the regulars.

I understand your point, but the fact is that it is a rule, has been a rule for a long time and probably always will be a rule. I'm just making sure I (and others) know how it needs to be judged.

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Posted by Dale Young on 09-20-2013 10:54 PM:

Agreed

Posted by michael cline on 09-20-2013 11:02 PM:

The only time you get the 15 put on you is if you are using a hunting judge and the opposition is behind or running junk. I have never herd someone say start the 15 if the dog not hunting has not scored.

Posted by jculler8 on 09-20-2013 11:07 PM:

Re: Calling Time Out While the 15 is Running on a Dog

quote:
Originally posted by Grant Noeske
If the 15 minutes for non-hunting are running on a dog, and another dog is trailing something (high speed) out of hearing and likely onto land the cast doesn't have permission to hunt on, can the judge call time out before the 15 minutes has elapsed and then restart the 15 minutes at the next drop?

So, for example, 10 minutes into the 15, the judge calls time out, the cast gathers up all dogs and goes to the next stop. The dog that had the 15 running on it would have 5 minutes left on the 15 when time in was called at the new spot.

DOGS WILL BE SCRATCHED
Rule 6(d) reads: Failing to make any attempt to hunt within any 15 consecutive scorecard minutes.

Yes, problem we had was underlying. It was more of a sportsmanship thing than anything. It was never under discussion if TO broke the 15 (maybe they/judge didn't know that it didn't and restarted next dump ), but guide already said dog(s) were in danger and handler of dog that was getting deep fast and in danger refused to tighten on his dog and didn't care about the 2 roads the guide said the dog running more than likely was on or close to. that was the only dog opening and the last time it broke the 8 before time was called (strikes deleted) it was over a mile away.

We walked into a bean field and started the 15 when 6(d) was applied. We made it to the tree line by the time 12 minutes were gone. The cast knew if we walked the 15 to tighten on the only dog opening, the time would be broke and they also knew if we called TO 1 dog would be handled for sure within the hour and get to recast.

What's the chances of winning a question on judgement calls like these?

I was between a rock and a hard place...

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Posted by JiM on 09-20-2013 11:17 PM:

In my worthless opinion, there would be no chance of winning a question against a non-hunting judge on a judgement call. Same question with a hunting judge? Possible but still not likely. But a non-hunting judge? No chance at all. IMO.

Posted by Grant Noeske on 09-20-2013 11:28 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
In my worthless opinion, there would be no chance of winning a question against a non-hunting judge on a judgement call. Same question with a hunting judge? Possible but still not likely. But a non-hunting judge? No chance at all. IMO.

I agree.

Here's why I asked the question, though. If the handler of the dog that has the 15 running had questioned the fact that the judge did not call time out in a situation when another dog was trailing onto posted land or onto a road, the conversation would most likely turn to the question of whether calling time out would save the dog from being scratched for 15 minutes of non-hunting. Since it wouldn't, there's no reason to NOT call time out (other than the fact that the other handlers want to see the dog scratched and know that at the next turn out, it'll probably go hunting). You have a dog in danger (regardless of whether the handler wants time out called). The 15 minutes of non-hunting will continue at the next drop. End of story. The key point in the entire scenario is whether the judge acknowledges during that 15 period that the dog trailing out of the area is getting onto a road...or onto land on which they have no permission. In this case, that was established.

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