UKC Forums - bench show judge question ?

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Posted by roughcreek on 07-07-2008 05:22 PM:

bench show judge question ?

if you are judging a show & you have good caliber hounds showing against each other. all are close in conformation. one dog is a hunting dog others are show dogs. does being a hunting dog have any bearing on your dissision ??

Posted by skyblu on 07-07-2008 05:30 PM:

MY PET PEEVE

Remember, you're judging the CONFORMATION of the dogs. I Have a HUGE PROBLEM with bench show judges who decide on winners based on knowledge that certain dogs hunt. There are no two dogs on this planet without differing conformation. After a judge evaluates gait, overall balance, proportion, respresentation of breed standard, there are MANY less significant conformation items that can be addressed to choose the winner - and whether or not a dog hunts should NOT be one of those!

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Posted by mudcreek on 07-07-2008 05:31 PM:

If you are the judge and you don't know the dogs or the handlers how are you going to know which dog is a hunting dog and which dog is a show dog? Unless they already have a NTCH or GNTCH title. Either way it should have no bearing in the outcome.

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Posted by georgef072007 on 07-07-2008 08:36 PM:

There is only way it does

If there is a question about an injury or scar, then it can be a factor within the rules. However, I have never asked about any scars or abnormal injuries that did not happen in the woods according to the handlers. We have to ask, but we all know the answer before we do. I guess that you would say that I agree with Skyblu on this one wholeheartedly, this is a Bench Show. When we turn the lights out whether or not they hunt is the issue then, not as long as they are being gaited and shown on the bench.

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Posted by roughcreek on 07-07-2008 10:57 PM:

this is just a highpethetical question, boy i bet i really screwed that word up !! LOL. but if both dogs are equal in every department & you got to make a dessision would this be apart of your dessision ? not trying to stir nothing up about hunting or non hunting dog. i have great respect for people & thier dogs that only show !! but would this come into play with your decission ?

not trying to be smart but give me 10 seconds with most dogs & i can tell you wether or not this dog is hunted much or not. (i said most dogs)

Posted by georgef072007 on 07-07-2008 11:37 PM:

absolutely not

There is always an area where one dog is better than the other, I have been in a situation close to this before, and there is always a way to split the dogs, One of my personal favorites is to have the handlers go to the other side of the bench, if your dog isn't used to being worked from both sides they will absolutely fall apart. Either way, hunted or not makes no difference on the carpet to me.

Posted by RedBones4me on 07-07-2008 11:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
this is just a highpethetical question, boy i bet i really screwed that word up !! LOL. but if both dogs are equal in every department & you got to make a dessision would this be apart of your dessision ? not trying to stir nothing up about hunting or non hunting dog. i have great respect for people & thier dogs that only show !! but would this come into play with your decission ?

not trying to be smart but give me 10 seconds with most dogs & i can tell you wether or not this dog is hunted much or not. (i said most dogs)

I dont know why the answer to this question keeps getting avoided.

People always say there are differences and I know there are but if they were absolutly perfectly matched and you knew that one was hunted and one was not, then what would you use as your tie breaker?

Would you flip a coin, say eeny meeny miny moe, draw straws, ect;
What would be your tie breaker?

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Posted by georgef072007 on 07-08-2008 12:15 AM:

well I might get in trouble for this

If, as you say , the dogs are perfectly matched and perform flawlessly in all aspects then I see no other option (hypothetically speaking of course) than to flip a coin. Hey it works in the hunt portion, and we don't have any minus points to work with here. That being said, I would love to see that be the problem that I have with most bench shows around here. When you get used to seeing marginally acceptable and just decent dogs on your benches, it is a refreshing change to see the quality go up.

Posted by skyblu on 07-08-2008 02:58 AM:

NO SUCH THING

IMPOSSIBLE for 2 dogs to be perfectly matched. They aren't made of wood or stone - they're alive, with subtle differences that a BSJ should be capable of evaluating.

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Posted by RedBones4me on 07-08-2008 02:59 AM:

this is just a highpethetical question

Posted by roughcreek on 07-09-2008 01:02 AM:

ok brad i'm going to put you on the spot, i know with you judging a show, who you are or what breed you are judging goes out the window when you judge a show. hunting dog or non hunting dog makes no difference. but this would not sway you just a teeny weeny, teeeny weeeny bit. just a teeeny weeeeny bit. LOL

Posted by georgef072007 on 07-09-2008 03:23 PM:

Well Jim

Have you ever heard me ask whether or not a dog is hunted? I don't ask, because I don't really care. Until we start drawing out for the hunt that part of the dogs training is totally irrelevent as far as I am concerned. The only advantage a hunted dog is going to have over most of the show dogs in our area is the physical conditioning and muscle tone that they develop out in the woods. However, if you get them out of the kennel and walk them on a walker, or jog them behind a truck for a couple of miles 2 or 3 times a week you can achieve the same conditioning without ever taking them hunting.

So, to answer your question, not one itty bitty bit!!! I would love to be able to to give some bonus points for dogs that hunt over the show dogs, but I don't see that happening in my lifetime.

Posted by georgef072007 on 07-09-2008 03:29 PM:

Now lets give this another more likely twist

What if you are judging a show, and the dogs that are entered are so patheticly close to barely meeting Breed Standards that you have trouble picking out the best one??? Would you want me to flip a coin then, or just keep looking them over until I find the one that most closely meets the standards? My point is that it's always easier for me to find the flaws in a really nice dog to split them than it is to pick the best of the worse.

Posted by roughcreek on 07-09-2008 06:04 PM:

i guess your right it would be harder to pick from the best of the worst. i have seen some & showed some that were pretty, well lets just say not to good !! that would be tough to give credet to a dog that just does not really look the best or handle the best.

Posted by redneck_girl on 07-10-2008 04:11 AM:

Re: MY PET PEEVE

quote:
Originally posted by skyblu
Remember, you're judging the CONFORMATION of the dogs. I Have a HUGE PROBLEM with bench show judges who decide on winners based on knowledge that certain dogs hunt. There are no two dogs on this planet without differing conformation. After a judge evaluates gait, overall balance, proportion, respresentation of breed standard, there are MANY less significant conformation items that can be addressed to choose the winner - and whether or not a dog hunts should NOT be one of those!

Absolutely have to agree with you on this one! Hunting ability or inability to hunt is a mute point at this time of a club event. The Bench Show Arena is just that. An Arena to show the best quality conformation in your hounds. PERIOD. No two hounds will ever be perfectly matched up, not even littermates. EVER!!
I have seen it come down to eye color....one clearer than the other. But, none the less, one will always match the breed standard better than the other.

As a BSJ, I have had people bring it to my attention that his/her dog smelled bad because he/she was in the swamp last night split treed with 7 coon. OK, WHATEVER!!! As a mental eyeroll goes on. As he/she is trying his/her best to straighten out the dogs cow hocked legs, trying to hide a bad bite by pretending the dog won't allow you to look at his teeth, or keep them from knuckling over....like I said ....WHATEVER!! I couldn't care less what this hound did in the woods last night. I care wether the hound meets Breed Standards. NO WHERE in the Breed Standards have I ever seen it printed that this breed must tree coon. So, therefore, hunting ability means nothing to me as a BSJ.

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Posted by Paul Langdon on 07-10-2008 11:12 AM:

I have seen nowhere in the breed standards where it says a dog must tree a coon!!!!!

And THAT, ladies and gentlemen is why we have so many cull pups and dogs today!!!!!!!!

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Posted by randy kratzer on 07-11-2008 10:47 PM:

jim

just get you a walker

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Posted by Lee Currens Jr. on 07-12-2008 01:29 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by roughcreek
this is just a highpethetical question, boy i bet i really screwed that word up !! LOL. but if both dogs are equal in every department & you got to make a dessision would this be apart of your dessision ? not trying to stir nothing up about hunting or non hunting dog. i have great respect for people & thier dogs that only show !! but would this come into play with your decission ?

not trying to be smart but give me 10 seconds with most dogs & i can tell you wether or not this dog is hunted much or not. (i said most dogs)

what does the book say on the cover?
yard dog or coonhound

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