UKC Forums - thoughts on breeding...

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-- thoughts on breeding... (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=430514)

Posted by Cynthia on 06-02-2011 04:48 PM:

thoughts on breeding...

these are some excerpts from an article on Side Effects of breeding. Some of these items fit right into the coonhound world and thought processes.

Read the entire article at: http://www.akcchf.org/news-events/l...de-effects.html

"...A dog with a winning show or performance career or one bearing a major kennel name can be a useful marketing tool for your litter. Accomplished dogs and successful breeders can have enormous positive impact on a breed. But a kennel name, no matter how revered, is only as good as the dog who carries it. Not every puppy produced, even by the most esteemed kennel, will be of breeding quality. Even a top winner might require second thoughts if he is siring large numbers of litters; his reproductive success can limit your future breeding options..."

"...Big wins and competitive titles are something to brag about, but how valid are they as guides to selection? No dog becomes a major competitor in any venue without a lot of time, effort and training on the part of its handler and others who support its career. The environment provided is “nurture” to the dog’s genetic “nature.” A great show dog may have the genes to endow his puppies with a perfect coat, but it is up to those who feed and groom to develop that potential. Those human talents can also help a less-thanideal coat pass muster. Similarly, in performance events a dog’s innate talent must be developed and guided by trainers and handlers. A genetically excellent dog with poor training or management can lose to a less talented one with the benefit of partnership with skilled people. Putting too much emphasis on wins or titles may not get you where you want to go with your breeding program - environmental factors (the training, handling, etc.) aren’t coded in the dog’s DNA..."

"...The divergence in show and working lines has also contributed to the loss of the full suite of working behaviors in a variety of breeds. This is not because show breeders deliberately select away from those behaviors, but because most are not making a conscious and consistent effort to maintain them. Complex traits cannot be maintained without consistent selection, generation after generation.

A final example of “thoughless” selection factors can be found in how some breeds dogs look. Considerable research has indicated that humans, and especially females, are attracted to babyish features in animals. Human nature, and perhaps the fact that the preponderance of people involved in dog breeding are female, has probably lead to the reduced size, larger eyes and shorter, blockier muzzles seen in several breeds today that did not exhibit these features a few decades past. ..."

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 06-02-2011 06:01 PM:

I would say the first 3 items can apply to coon hounds, but the last item I think not so much. I would say that the majority of coon hounds being bred today are still aiming at the working dog side and not too much at the pretty side.

Have you seen Stylish Clover dogs???

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Posted by Cynthia on 06-02-2011 06:50 PM:

those were just items I pulled out. You will have to read the entire article for the full effect. and to say that there is NOT a divergence in "show" and "hunt" lines is crazy. hunters do not want to breed to show lines because "they cant hunt" but they continue to breed titles to titles w/o looking at the dogs and what they bring to the table, whether its a long history of natural hunters or correct conformation to keep hunting longer & harder than their competition. the same is true of a lot of "show" lines. the conformation has gotten so bad in some of the "hunt" lines because they only want to breed to a title that the gap is beginning to widen and the "show" lines are fearful of breeding to them for possibly not having and "good" dogs come from the litter. I know there are exceptions to everything and there are many "show/hunt" lines that are producing what should be produced. this was basically food for thought. and the entire article can be applied to coonhounds...heck it applies to dogs in general!

Posted by Larry Atherton on 06-02-2011 07:35 PM:

Cynthia,

Ya need to go back and reread what I typed. I did not disagree with the show and hunting divergence. I only commented on the last part you posted about women selecting for neoteny in coon hounds. I do, however, agree that occurs in AKC lap dogs.

You are correct that many only bred for hunt winners, but not everyone is doing that. In fact, if you search my past post you should see that is in fact not successful method of selecting breeding stock. At best you can only expect a very low percentage of success.

I was not attacking your post, but just trying to prompt discussion.

PS I did read the entire article.

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Posted by StrawberryMt on 06-02-2011 07:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Larry Atherton
Cynthia,..........

, but just trying to prompt discussion.

Thus the low blow,Whitey comment.LOL

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Posted by Cynthia on 06-02-2011 07:55 PM:

ok, Larry, I'll give you that. there are more female breeders in AKC than in coonhounds. my bad.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 06-02-2011 08:22 PM:

No bad! It is just a discussion.

Strawberry,

I can legitimately dish on the Whitey dogs now as my son owns one ... of course she doesn't look Clover breed at all. She is red headed and blanket backed.

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Posted by MikeR on 06-02-2011 10:36 PM:

For once I agree with something from the AKC. The AKC and it's show breeders have all but ruined most of the ability in the sporting and working breeds.

Many of the UKC show line coonhound breeders won't be far behind.

Posted by Cynthia on 06-03-2011 02:24 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by MikeR

Many of the UKC show line coonhound breeders won't be far behind.

this wont happen as long as the "show" & "hunt" breeders can work together to better the BREED and not just THEIR kennels. That is one thing that those that are showing in AKC conformation are making a point to those judges (many have never seen a coonhound) is that these are working breeds and they do today what they have been bred for: coon, bear, etc.

Posted by amazingcursouth on 06-03-2011 03:31 AM:

who cares how pretty and straight a dog is, if it can't hunt its useless..... hounds were bred to hunt. being pretty is just a bonus. i like watching the show and such but im always thinking hmmm what a waste. not knocking the ones that show and love to show, just saying the hunting ability should always come first

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Posted by Cynthia on 06-03-2011 02:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by amazingcursouth
who cares how pretty and straight a dog is, if it can't hunt its useless..... hounds were bred to hunt. being pretty is just a bonus. i like watching the show and such but im always thinking hmmm what a waste. not knocking the ones that show and love to show, just saying the hunting ability should always come first

if they were ONLY bred to hunt then why are there breed standards?

Posted by amazingcursouth on 06-03-2011 02:45 PM:

the breed standards are to keep the breeds within there own identity. The thing is, you can hunt a dog that does NOT meet what some consider the "Breed Standard". the standards were put into place to separate the breeds. Look at it like this, if a dog is bred just to the standards, but cannot function in the woods, that dog has not met the standard at all. Like i said before... the hound is bred to hunt. Hunting is what it enjoys doing. It was not bred to look pretty and stand there. Like i said, i have many good friends who show and i love them dearly. but if a person breeds a dog just for straight legs and so forth, the are not breeding a working dog. I just think a dog should be bred for hunting ability first. Not titles to titles, but for hunting ability. If the dog has both hunt/bench, thats awesome. but hunting should come first. thats what they are designed to do.

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Posted by CountryMile on 06-03-2011 04:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
For once I agree with something from the AKC. The AKC and it's show breeders have all but ruined most of the ability in the sporting and working breeds.

Many of the UKC show line coonhound breeders won't be far behind.

Too late in my opinion. They have accomplished it.

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Posted by rghnd123 on 06-03-2011 05:14 PM:

Breed Standards

What a lot don't understand is that a dog does not have to stand like a statue. The dog is supposed to fit the breed standard. The standard was put in place to show how a hunting dog should look. The one that fits the standard is supposed to be a more agile and faster hunter. These were put in place as a measuring stick for purebred dogs. No standard is in place for crossbreeds. I agree if your dogs start to vere from the breed standard maybe its time to put some looks back in.

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Posted by toe cutter on 06-03-2011 05:34 PM:

MY THOUGHTS ON BREEDING

ALOT OF PEOPLE THINK THAT THE RED EAGLE LINE IS JUST A HEAD AND TAIL LINE BECAUSE OF LISA WINNING THE WORLD SHOWS WITH HER DOGS OUT OF THE LINE.
NO INSULT INTENDED,BUT I WOULD NOT WALK ACROSS THE STREET TO A BENCH SHOW, I HAVE ALWAYS CONSENTRATED ON THE HUNTING ABILTY OF THE DOGS GARY HERN BRED..
BUT THE FACT IS, THE SHOWS IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST REASONS "THIS LINE" STILL HAS THE TRACKING IN THEM AND ARE ACCURATE TREE DOGS. THE TRACKING WAS NOT BRED OUT STARTING IN THE MID 90'S BY PEOPLE LOOKING FOR THE HARD EVERY BREATH TREE DOGS TO IMPRESS OTHERS LIKE ALOT WERE.
SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY PEOPLE ARE GONNA RELIZE THAT TITLES AND WHO OWNS IT ARE NOT FACTORS TO BE CONSIDERED WHEN BREEDING FOR HONEST COONDOGS.
PEOPLE WANT THE ALL GRAND NITE HUNT TITLED PUPS AND THEN BITCH CAUSE IT TURNS OUT TO HAVE NITE HUNT TYPE FAULTS.
AS FAR AS LOOKS, THE SIMPLE FACT IS MOST PEOPLE WILL GIVE A PUP A BETTER CHANCE IN THE WOODS TRAINING IT IF THEY LIKE THE LOOKS OF THE DOG OVER ONE THEY DON'T.
A DOG COULD BE THE BEST ONE IN THE WORLD AND HAVE A HEAD LOOKING LIKE IT COULD EAT OUT OF A COKE BOTTLE AND NO ONE WOULD WANT TO BREED TO IT BECAUSE OF IT.
THE CLOVER DOGS MAY BE PLAIN JANE IN COLOR,BUT THEY ARE GOOD LOOKIN AS FAR AS BEING WELL BUILT DOGS.

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Posted by SCBluetickGal on 06-03-2011 08:03 PM:

You're absolutely correct, TC. I will be the first to admit that in terms of correct conformation and movement, I often prefer "hunting bred" Walkers. There are a lot of winning show lines out there in the breed that I find absolutely hideous as far as angulation and movement goes. I've been given some flack about it, but I'll take my Habit/Fred dog with his black and white/ticked coat over those pretty colored dogs any day....because he can MOVE, and has the build I prefer.

Since blueticks are my other breed of choice, I'm a bit biased...however, I think the breed as a whole is doing a good job at not separating "show" and "hunting" dogs. Of course there are exceptions, but a lot of blue dogs winning in the show ring right now aren't necessarily "bred to be show dogs." Just an observation.

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Posted by Gibbo on 06-03-2011 10:39 PM:

I went on a bear hunt with a guy in who's name I won't say to respect his privacy but he is well known in the big game circle. I was amazed by the conformation of his dogs. I guarantee none of them have ever seen a bench and would be willing to bet anything that he did not take looks much into consideration when breeding these dogs. I am sure after our conversations that his biggest goal was great bear dogs. However, the result was a line with as good of conformation as any I have seen.

Funny how that works

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