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Our Dogs are Smarter than many give credit for.

There are a lot of questions on here about training dogs and what you should do and should not do. We also go into the area of e-collar training. E-collars are like a magic wand. Either in a stand alone system or included into your tracking with the ALPHA. You all know I sell this stuff but hey I was on this board in 2003 long before todays magic wands were even produced. This isn't a sales pitch. If you have a hound you owe it to yourself and your hound to teach it to operate with a training collar on. Now let me give credit to the guys that have it figured out without any training collar. When I was young, I felt I did. With age and a slower pace I just can't get to a dog to give in one on one discipline like the youngsters can. The tone button on an e-collar is magic.
Down here in FL we run deer with hounds. I cringe at many of my customers who talk about what they can do with a hound. They can stop them on a road or honking a horn. It is just not in my training methods on handling a fragile coonhound. Let me tell you the coonhounds are not as fragile as you think they are. They can take discipline on a tree. They can take being called off a tree if you can't get to it. They can be called across a river. If you haven't experienced using a training collar. You just not old enough and still have a lot of energy or you are fooling yourself. Our hounds are smarter and tougher than we give them credit for.

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"Boss Lights"

I agree with you Bruce but I think it needs added that if you do not have a firm grasp on what the dog is doing or your own temper, then you shouldn't be using a training collar.

Figure out what is best for that dog and go from there. The first thing you need to know is why is he doing something and then get a plan together to change what he is doing. If after you have tried that plan a few times and it doesn't work then try something different.

I'll give you an example. I used an e collar on a dog for treeing possum. There was another dog at the tree also. The next tree the dog made he left when the other dog backed him. It was a possum also. So I put the other dog up and turned him by himself. He treed another possum. This time when I seen it was a possum I hit him with the collar. After that if he had a possum he left when he seen me coming and he left every tree a dog backed him on for 2 months after that with coons or possums. I caused way more harm than good. I got him back to staying when another dog came in with some work. After a while he stayed a few times when he treed a possum. The collar did nothing to break him from it. What finally broke him was a switch. When he realized it was me disciplining him and I didn't want him treeing possums he stopped.

The point is if the dog is not 100% sure what it is being disciplined for its best not to do it at all. I've heard it said a hundred times when someone gets on a dog that they knew what they were doing. Some do but a lot don't. There are no telling how many world class dogs were ruined when they were young by someone who thought they knew how to train a dog.

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Michael Rosamond
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PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

BOTH OF YOU FELLOWS make good points and explained them well.

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Joey your correct. If you allow your temper or pethaps a few cold beverages to creep into your training your backing up. Joey there are very few men in this soprt I never disagreed with. Your one of them along with JiM on rules and Mr. Roy on general dog knowledge. Mr. Roy may be gone but his advice will never be forgotten.

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"Boss Lights"

I had good luck possum breaking a 9 month old pup with an e collar. She was treeing coons pretty good ,but also possums. One night she treed a possum. When I saw what it was, I backed out as far as I could and still see the tree. I put my Alpha on 2 and tickled her. She left ,but came back in a minute. I tickled her again. She left but returned in a minute. This went on until she decided treeing possums wasn't fun. She left on her own. It didn't effect her treeing at all because I never hurt her. I just made treeing possums uncomfortable. The next hunt , she treed a possum. I tickled her again. I guess she decided treeing possums wasn't fun. She hasn't treed one in a year. She's still a hard tree dog on coons.

Raising the dogs your hunting as pups has ALOT to do with how much they obey to your commands imo. The more time you spend with them the less you will need any sort of e collar. Even if they are still a pup. I can call my pup off anything and he is stubborn.

I agree with both Bruce and Joey. I do not have the temper or smart enough for an e collar. But I will put a switch on them. Like Joey said I want them to know who and why they are switched.

Good points. Now for a question. I hope I don't come off sounding like an idiot.
Just what is it about a tone? I have an OMC that has NEVER been shocked but you can hit that tone button and she will immediately change her demeanor and come sneaking back to me. I didn't work her on it; it just happened. Honestly, the first time I did this was because she was running down a gravel road away from me and I intended to tickle her but hit wrong button.

One thing about the alpha is I can go home most anytime I want...Hog dogs bred to finish what they start can make it a long day or night but with the alpha it has been an easy fix...

Like Joey said in using an E collar...we must be smarter than the dog to use it otherwise a dog can be culled or at a minimum have a major setback all because of when it was used...

A pup needs to know the woods and what is the preferred game and must have woods experience if you are to use the ecollar in the woods on the pup...the pup needs to know the woods is a fun place...if we think to nip deer running in the bud the first time in the woods and you zap the pup he might get the idea that running any game in the woods is bad or...the woods is a bad place to be...so he stays underfoot...and it all goes downhill from there...it is the little things we do at the wrong time that can cause major setbacks...or the little things we do right at the right times that can really make a pup into all it can be as a hunting dog...

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

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Clif that is an excellent question and what I was referring to when I mentioned the magical wand. It is not only the stimulation but also the tone and vibrate mode they respond to.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

Each dog is an individual. Some are very smart; some are very dumb and some are in between. We have to be smart enough to know just how smart our particular dog is. And each dog will tolerate a certain level of stimulation. We also have to be smart enough to recognize how much stimulation our particular dog needs or can tolerate. There is a lot more to using an Alpha than just turning it on and mashing the button.

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Richard, I was raised with the same thoughts. I think they are not completely correct. I live in an area where the majority of hounds are deer hounds. I see guys everyday purchase alphas and other training systems. They strap them on the dog and it is amazing how fast the dog learns. These guys have never read any books or saw videos. Their goal is to stop 10-20 hounds from crossing a road or a fence line. It is amazing how fast the dogs learn to get in the truck and stop a hot deer race. They aint breaking them off the deer either. They are just controlling the dogs. Coonhunters would never dream of shocking their dogs off a hot track and make them load. A lot of the problems with our hounds are because of limits we put on ourselves. We are afraid to discipline our dogs for the fear of messing them up. Our dogs are smarter than we give them credit for being.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

The ecollor to me is the best tool there is besides the Garmin. The alpha is Everything a dog man could dream of all built into one. The tt-15 has everything you need to train a dog, lights, tone, viberate and shock. Notice the order I put them in? They all can be used to train a dog for different circumstances.
Bruce is a nice guy and says things in a nice way. Me I ain't got that far in life yet so forgive me if I sound rude. Alot of folks ain't got sense enough to own a dog let alone a shock collor. More dogs are ruined by them than there are made. I hunt dogs for the public and have for a few years. Stay full all the time with a waiting list. The number one thing that eurks me the most that I've seen the most is these dogs come to me scared to death. Why???? Most have had very bad experiences from previous owners and there high tech ways of training. EVERY dog has it's own limit. It's up to the dog man to figure out his or her dogs limit. Some respond better to the light, some respond better to the tone and some need a lil more than 8 to get there attention.
Very good post Bruce alot can be learnt from this for everyone.

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jason

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Each dog is an individual. Some are very smart; some are very dumb and some are in between. We have to be smart enough to know just how smart our particular dog is. And each dog will tolerate a certain level of stimulation. We also have to be smart enough to recognize how much stimulation our particular dog needs or can tolerate. There is a lot more to using an Alpha than just turning it on and mashing the button.

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__________________
Michael Rosamond
Sunspot Lights
936-827-6309
http://www.sunspotlights.com/
When brightness matters!!

Home Of:
PKC Ch, Grch Grnch 2008 Tx state champion They call me Crazy Betty

PKC SCh CH Grnch They call me Howler too

quote:

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Originally posted by joey
It has been my experience that the really smart ones are the easiest to mess up by our "training".

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Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

quote:

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Originally posted by joey
It has been my experience that the really smart ones are the easiest to mess up by our "training".

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__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...