UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- John Duemmer, clarify please (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928368480)

John Duemmer, clarify please

Hounds are unclear to determine if treed, all hounds have been struck. Handler A says he thinks his dog is treed, then suggests if treed to split points with others, if so. The other two handlers agree. I say all we have to do is walk a little more and we will hear clearly. We move just around spur and begin to hear. Again handler A says he thinks his hound is treed. I ask him if he wants to tree his dog ,he does not. As we begin to hear, I tree my dog. Handlers B and C tree their hounds. Handler A , whom suggested his dog was treed, never trees him when we can hear. We go to tree, only two dogs are treeing, mine, and handler B hound. We score tree and coon is seen. We split points, me and Handler B receive plus and Handler C minus, because his hound is not present at tree. I know Handler A's dog was never treed. He never took opportunity to have first tree, when asked did he want to tree his dog. He wants to cover himself never treeing his dog only suggesting he might be treed. Now he gets a no plus , but also he gets no minus. I feel I may not have handed correctly.

Just a comment and yes, I know I'm not John.
The only mention of splitting points that I can find in the rule book is 2(e). That rule makes it clear that splitting points is for "called positions". This business of agreeing to split points before the positions have even been called is not supported by anything in the rules.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Not real clear on your ? but i believe in order for points to be split all cast members must agree and they would have to be recorded right then, if one cast member doesnt agree then the dogs must be called and the 5 run.

Im not real sure on UKCs. position but i have been on many casts where the dogs have blown up on the leash and all handlers agree to split the strike points and cut em.
I really dont know if 2 cast members in a 3 dog cast can agree to split tree points? interesting?
The score card does give a math breakdown for splitting tree points so i assume it is an acceptable way to go.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Jim may well be correct,and the only time points may be split is when it cant be determined which handler spoke first.

__________________
Everything that makes them a COONDOG is on the inside

Thank you

However, there were four in cast, Handler A suggesting his dog might be treed and saying if so we split points. Handlers B and Handler C quickly agree, I do not agree. This is third time in four hunts I have drawn Handler A, one night he wasn't there! I know his dog is not treed. I know it suppose to be a blind draw??? All I can say on that once was enough with Handlers A's dog. As you say every time cast, blowing up on lead. Every time, then will be struck before or by third bark after minute. Will hold first strike for the hour just opening enough and covering a lot of ground, I know no track is present. Will tree a coon, but a weak coon treeing dog. Pasts lots of coons my dogs tree! After getting other Handlers B and C to agree to split, which I think is premature, we gain clarity on hounds I tree my dog, Handlers B and C tree their dogs, and of course Handlers A dog is still trailing. O.K., I run the five, we go to tree, Handlers C dog, treed for third is not present. I take the first two and call for cast to come see coon, just like the two times the previous night. O.K. I plus me first and Handler B second, minus Handler C third. Handler A gets no plus ,but also gets no minus. O.K. after leave tree Handler A says points should be split, Handlers B and C say yes we agreed to that down in hollow, I never agreed. Three handlers say put question by it and go to MOH for ruling. I say O.K., I change score to 83.33 plus for me and the same for Handler B, minus Handler C 83.33. Club indicated gentlemen agreement on split points when tree can't be determined, I agree, but dogs I know were not treed in my judgment. Just want to know what you think should have been done.

Split strike and tree points are for the times when called positions can't be determined: all dogs blow up while on lease and handlers agree to split strike points.

It's the same with tree points. Say the dogs tree around a hill and as in this scenario you are not sure if they are in fact treed. The cast walks until the dogs are clearly heard. At this point the judge should ask which dogs are treed (if there is more than one treeing)and if the handlers want to split tree points for the dogs treed. Any handler not treeing his dog at this time keeps the option of treeing his dog in before the 5 minutes are up at the unused position (ie, 2 dogs treed splitting 1st and 2nd tree points leaves 3rd and 4th tree positions open).

__________________
Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

I don't like how it was handled...

Dog A is in the clear...



But the 2 that treed should been treed individually as I read it...first dog declared treed for 125...the next 75...the next 50...

Dog that left is minus its tree points...the other 2 are plussed...



In the event dogs get out of hearing and the cast walks to the top of the ridge and it sounds like a freight train coz 4 dogs are blowing the top off agree to split...if you want...but if I called mine treed first that 125 is mine..or if you did its yours....

Lots of times someone wants to sit back..or jump the gun for the first...or wanna make sure theirs is there and will stay there etc...I don't see it hardly ever...

About the only time I see split points is when guys all strike or tree and no one knows who talked first...which is how the rule is supposed to work like Jim said I believe...

__________________
Team Trackman!!

'PR' Trackman's Dizzy Duke

I know I did not handle correctly and wanted more direction on what was the correct procedure. I certainly agree with your assessment on scoring, this is exactly how I did it. Handlers A and B wanted it questioned, so I changed score to what they wanted. I do not have to have night champion in front of my dog's name to know they will hang coons all over these dudes dogs.

If you never agreed to split the points , then you should have never changed the score !

When you changed the score , you opened the can of worms.

__________________
Bob Brooks /
Jordan Tyler (grandson)

BackWoods River Walkers/Beagles
Just all 'round , meat gettin' hounds.

the points should not of been split, they should be scored as called, only time points are split is when its undetermined the order of dogs called out to the judge, "everyone screaming a call at the same time" you know when it happens cause the judge is scratching his head and don't know who hollered what.

__________________
no doubt!!
Nt.Ch. 2010 World Hunt Finalist Tug River Stylish PJ, Pkc Ch. Nt.Ch. Stylish Polly, Pkc Ch. Nt.Ch. Stylish Cheyenne, Gr.Nt.Ch. Frieds Thunder Crank, Gr.Nt.Ch. Major Dan , Nt.Ch. Lil Red Rat, Stylish Tanks Style

I have been on many cast where the dogs ran over a hill and out of hearing. Instead of racing up the hill we would say when we get to the top where we can hear the dogs anyone who then wants to call their dog treed, the points will be split.

Yep, happens all the time. Has forever. Never really heard of any problems with it. I'm just saying that rules don't support doing it. By the rules, if I understand them correctly, you cannot split points until AFTER positions are called. Until positions have been called out, there is nothing to split.

__________________
UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

Guess this is what we did. I'm not into this noise with dudes that need to think they have something they don't. Have hung first tree on 7 coons seen with [ moon dog], in seven nights ,two of those nights no coon scored, have never won a cast. I do however, get the satisfaction of walking their butts off. They also cannot appreciate the beauty about them or the moment. I will say again " most people do not know what a coon dog is". Even more sad they do not know what living is about either! I am not going to argue over points.

I've been pleasure hunting nearly everything night lately...I've been finding other weekend activities... Aka pleasure hunting on weekends...




And scoring as I see fit....hard to see but ole Duke is at the bottom of the sapling and ole Ricky the raccoon is at the top...treed 3 and a den last night in less than an hour...I should have took ole Dukes UKC card out of my wallet and wrote coon dog in front of his registered name!

No fussing in the woods...just a man and his dog...


I'll still goto hunts...but I've really lost my drive this season...sometimes you just gotta take a step back and sit on the tailgate and listen to your dog...

__________________
Team Trackman!!

'PR' Trackman's Dizzy Duke