UKC Forums - Opinions on future investment

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Posted by S & N Rains on 02-24-2012 12:10 AM:

Opinions on future investment

Plan on breading the following dogs when the female comes in heat....what are your thoughts on this cross?

Silver Creek Seth
PKC Ch GrNgt Ch CH Stroh's Big Time Buddy
Kansas Dancer

Puppy

Comas Stylish Legend
Rains' Lil Bit of Hope
Stylish Jeta

We are very excited about the cross of these 2 dogs. We are keeping a couple puppies for ourselves, a lot depends of if the female takes and how many are produced. Let us know what you think, can get longer pedigree posted at a later date if someone wants it.

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Posted by S & N Rains on 02-24-2012 03:35 PM:

No opinions.....I am very surprised, figured someone would have something to say about it. Oh well hope it all goes well and we have puppies this spring!! :-)

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Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-24-2012 03:43 PM:

O.K. I have a question. did ya convince the misses that this was an investment???

Just wondering, after all, coons hounds end up an investment just about as often as lightening hitting the same place twice.lol

P.S. I quit judging the merits of a cross based just on pedigrees a very long time ago. Do ya have some more info on the dogs and their families to give us all something more to chew on?

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Posted by JiM on 02-24-2012 04:28 PM:

As long as YOU are exited, that is all that matters because the one thing I have figured out is that when it comes to coonhounds, the only person that ever gets excited about an upcoming cross is the person making it.

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Posted by starplott on 02-24-2012 05:39 PM:

Investment, lol, that is funny. I've been breeding for over a couple decades...only heard of puppymillers refering to breeding as 'investments'.

An investment is something you put money into that generates more than what you put into it. Breeding is more of a gamble. It may or may not recoup costs, most likely not if you are doing it right.

One who hunts their dogs to find out if they are higher end dogs usually spend about $2000 each dog on feed/vet/hunting fuel/equip/kennels/entry fees/reg etc not counting buying them as pups for $250 each. So before breeding you are looking at about $4500 you have 'invested' before you breed.

Puppies aren't cheap to raise if you are doing it right. About $200 in shots and wormer for a litter of 8 (unless you gamble on feed store vaccines or spend the extra for the vet). Extra food for dam, food for pups can run well over $100 over what you would normally feed just the bitch, that is if you feed cheap crap food. (we won't even go into bedding costs, dysinfectants) Registration of a litter can run over $100 depending on the number of registries and the way you register (just litter reg or litter/full reg).

$4900+ invested to get them to 8 weeks. Advertisement (if you don't have them sold beforeh) and can run from $15 on up.

You sell 8 pups for $300 that is $2400, which still leaves you a neg balance of a min of $2500.

If the bitch has issues, that could run an extra $100 to $3500 (which is a gamble we take when we breed). If you don't know what you are doing...sick pups can cost quite a bit.

Not exactly sure how that is an investment. If you are doing it right...you will have to have 3-4 litters with no probs and all pups gone by 8 weeks to see a slight return, say $2000 over 6 years. Is a proffit on your investment of about $27 a month for the ave for 6 years of having and breeding this pair if all goes perfect.

Not much of an investment to wait 4-5 years to clear $2000 in the green.

Even with my two other breeds with pups running $800-$1500 there is little to the green after a couple litters. I can easily rack up $10K a year for training, showing, competing, traveling, feeding, worming, equip, vetting/health screening, etc. The ave litter costs me about $500 to worm, vaccinate, feed, and shavings to 8-10 weeks. Stud fees (not counting screening of bitch before breeding) can run $700-$1500 to the stud owner (not counting transporting, hotels, etc). Even if I went with stud fee...my first litter I have at least $12-25K to recoup. That is not exactly close to the $7-$12K that comes in from a litter.

I spose I could just let my dogs sit in the kennel and not do health tests and sell pups every year out of the same bitch, feed crap food, and sell pups for $450-650 like the back yard breeders and it would be an investment, so to speak.

The money part of dogs is in boarding/training. Not selling pups.

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Posted by plentyofpossum on 02-24-2012 05:45 PM:

Star

We wouldn't be here today talking about dogs if were not for backyard breeders.

Posted by mleck on 02-24-2012 06:03 PM:

I really didn't take this man comments to be a money investment. If anyone thinks making a cross and dont require an investment in time for raising, hunting and the loss of time if they dont turn out. you have lost a big investment of one of the greatest resouces of all "Time"!!

you have to invest alot into raising a litter of puppies and keeping some of them to hunt for yourself and money is least part of the whole deal.

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Posted by old ben on 02-24-2012 06:57 PM:

Re: Star

quote:
Originally posted by plentyofpossum
We wouldn't be here today talking about dogs if were not for backyard breeders.

yalp

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Posted by starplott on 02-24-2012 07:13 PM:

Re: Star

quote:
[i]Originally posted
We wouldn't be here today talking about dogs if were not for backyard breeders.

True, depending how you look at it. But we started as apes too.

Guess that was an invalid point since we elected the talking monkey in office.

Back yarders of today are not close to what they were 80 years ago. There's a difference to information not being available and refusing to get educated to do better.

We have health tests to test breeding stock for genetic issues that the current back yarders care less about passing on. That extra cash on hand means more than the health, future, proper placement, and integrity of the breeds. WTF is the pupose of a Chi-weenie? A Hav a chon? A puggle?

Most of my clients started out with buying from back yarders. I can go on and on with health, structure, and temp issues. I have one client who bought a lab from a back yarder that bred 'just hunting' stock and has spent over $5k in vet bills due to severe allergies and thyroid issues. That is over $1000 a year of that dog's life. They put their son's dog down after 2 knee replacements failed (dog was 5). My sister thought she was saving money paying $350 on a lab puppy that a friend bred. After $1500 in vet bills for genetic issues, the dog was rehomed at year and a half. The pup they got from me is 9 and has yet to have extra vet bills.

I've purchased hound pups starting out before deciding forking out $300 a pup, not including airfare, was a hell of a deal over the $75-175 that was ave puppy price at the time, to get a well bred pup from somebody who was established and guaranteed pups (didn't sell to anybody with $300 either).

Breeders who are responsible don't offer pups to people on this board who have sat around and watched 2-3 pups die because going to the vet wasn't an option. They don't sell to everybody who 'wants' one. They screen potential buyers. When they don't culls get passed around, bred, and dogs end up in shelters. Good dogs do come out, don't get me wrong. Just like culls can come out of well bred dogs on occasion.

There are good/educated small scale breeders out there! Though the back yarders who think because they have two dogs they should be bred and pups will fly out of the kennel tend to out number.

The term back yard breeder is a mindset and has nothing to do with the number of dogs,in a kennel or how many litters they produce. Puppymiller mentality on a smaller scale. I know some bigtime breeders that are just short of upscale puppy mills. Got one down the road. Has a facility to die for! Will import a cull for $2500 at 2 and sell it sight unseen for $10k as a trained dog with 48 hrs to return it or you are stuck w it. A puppy from his place...$2500 starting. And yes, his dogs fly out of his kennels. He is a complete idiot and crook. But he has a high price tag, imports dogs from overseas (which must be quality), has titled dogs, has a facility that would make the Alexanders envious, and a fancy website. Doesn't make him a good breeder. If it has a title it gets bred, just as long as he has a pup avail when somebody waives $2500+ out to him.

The ONLY difference between him and a back yard breeder is the fancy facility and high price tag. He's just a fancy dog trader and upscale puppymill.

Trust me, there are no jealousy issues! He's always the talk of animal abuse complaints and his selling high priced kennel dogs has put him in the media spotlight a time or two (recently for refusing a dog shipped back to him that was a disaster, which ended up sitting at the airport until the media shamed him into going to get it).

It would be nice to have his facility though. He's such an arrogant ass he can't even keep good staff and trainers. Know several who have worked for him, even moved family cross country. They all flee as soon as they can. They all say the same about his business.

But, there is a market for puppymillers and back yarders! Guess those people refused by not qualifying through a reputable breeder or just want cheap need to get their dogs from somewhere....vets and shelters need business.

In 30 years I have rescued quite a few dogs from such 'breeders'. NEVER have I rescued one from a responsible breeder. Have taken some in short term to get back to breeder if situations changed at the request of,the breeder in cases of illness and divorce a few times. But when a breeder calls and asks me to take a dog until we can meet, I hardly call that a rescue.

Got a rescue coming tomorrow. Nice dog, even bred. People have father and son. Father is just coming into his own at 3. NOT the right fit for the breed. They got a male and a female, bred young, sold all but 1 pup, and 'lost' the bitch while pups were being weaned. Sad fact is that next year when son comes into his own, will have to take him too. Just another case of somebody selling dogs to who ever has the cash rather than caring what happens to what they breed... Nice people, but they never would have qualified for a puppy from anybody I know who breeds responsibly in the breed. Certainly not qualify for a pup of that breed from me.

Being a breeder is MUCH more than breeding two dogs because you want to or like them. I know a lot of dogs I really like, even have a couple, that I won't breed or allowed to be bred. Just because somebody has money doesn't qualify them to be able to be a good home.

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Posted by croatankid on 02-24-2012 07:25 PM:

and yet there is no shortage of puppies. it seems everyone with a bitch will find a male to breed her and sale the puppies for $200.00.
i'm not a breeder of any sort. i have only females and that is all i've ever had but in my opinion none were good enough to breed. i prefer buying puppies from breeders that like breeding as much as i like wearing out dogs.

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Posted by Hey Preacher!!! on 02-24-2012 08:06 PM:

DAVE RAMSEY(RADIO HOST, AUTHOR OF FINANCIAL PEACE) TELLS A STORY OF HIS YOUNGER DAYS WHEN HIS THOUGHT PROCESS RESEMBLED THE REST OF THE WORLD!!! HE HAD JUST PURCHASED A BRAND NEW JAGUAR AND WANTED TO SHOW IT OFF TO HIS GRANDFATHER!!! HE WENT ON AND ON ABOUT HOW GOOD OF INVESTMENT THIS CAR WAS TO WHICH CAME THE RESPONSE, "I DON'T KNOW ABOUT YOU SON, BUT I EXPECT MY INVESTMENTS TO MAKE MONEY"!!! ON THE OTHER HAND WE TALK ABOUT INVESTMENTS THAT CAN'T BE MEASURED WITH MONEY BUT ALL INVESTMENTS SHOULD EXPECT A 'RETURN' OF SOME SORT!!! I GET SO TIRED OF POLITICIANS USING THE TERM 'INVESTING IN EDUCATION', I KNOW YOU CAN'T EXPECT A FINANCIAL GAIN FROM THIS 'INVESTMENT' BUT LOOK AT THE FACTS-WE SPEND MORE ON EDUCATION THAN WE EVER HAVE, AND GET POORER AND POORER RESULTS!!! THE SOLUTION OBVIOUSLY ISN'T 'THROW MORE MONEY AT THE PROBLEM'!!! OUR PRESIDENT TALKS ABOUT 'INVESTING' IN CLEAN, GREEN, ENERGY AND GIVES MONEY TO COMPANIES WHO THEN GO BANKRUPT!!! THAT'S NOT A SMART 'INVESTMENT'!!! INVESTMENT-DEFINE THE INTENDED RESULTS(POTENTIAL GAINS) AND THEN MAKE A DECISION BASED ON THAT!!!

Posted by S & N Rains on 02-25-2012 02:04 AM:

Ok so maybe investment isn't the word I should have used. To me it is an investment even though probably not going to be one in which I gain anything financially. I will get a return in my investment by seeing 2 dogs that I really like, 1 being my female, the other being my fathers male which I both love produce a puppy that I will inturn get to have the pleasure of raising.

Larry, the male, Buddy, is 12ish, he is a very good dog all around. Haven't seen a dog with a better dispostion. We have pictures of our youngest son sitting on his back while he was laying on the deck. He is the type of dog that is will take a track as it comes to him, he usually ended up by himself unless he was training a pup, then of course the pup would find him and join him. He is a very accurate dog, stays at the tree with a steady chop.
The female is 3, she has not been compition hunted yet, she has a very loud bawl mouth. She is very accurate, gives mouth according to the track. She will not bark treed with another dog if she can't smell it.

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He may be ugly but he looks good on the wood.

Posted by S & N Rains on 02-27-2012 01:58 AM:

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'PR' Rains Lil' Bit of Hope

He may be ugly but he looks good on the wood.

Posted by Larry Atherton on 02-27-2012 03:30 PM:

I was just yanking your chain a little about the investment comment. I may have tried similar lines for various ventures with my wife before. She never falls for it though.lol

Your dogs sound like some pretty decent hounds. I do know what it is to be excited about a cross, and it sounds like you are excited about your prospects. Heck, that is a huge part of this crazy sport.

All kidding a side, I wish you the best of luck. Keep us informed of your progress.

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