UKC Forums - Different? on dog leaving tree

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 08-10-2014 08:32 PM:

Different? on dog leaving tree

Here is one I don't believe I have ever seen. Happened at a hunt.
Four dog cast.
Dogs A and B are treed and handled.
Dogs C and D are still running a track.
Cast is searching the tree of A and B. Before shining time is over some how dog A breaks free and goes to running dogs C and D.
Cast continues to shine the tree.
After 10 minutes are up on tree and before dog B can be recast to running dogs A,C,D , all three are declared treed.

The problem is how would you score or handle this situation with dog C ?
He was already handled at the original tree and the cast was searching the tree when he broke free .
We know dogs that leave a tree before being handled are minused.This dog was already handled.
Should he eligible to be restruck or retreed?
What about the tree he left?

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Posted by JiM on 08-10-2014 08:39 PM:

Well, I'm not sure of anything other than that dog A darn sure cannot be restruck or retreed.

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 08-10-2014 08:45 PM:

May not be right but I would score dog A on the original tree but delete strike and tree points on the tree with dogs C & D.

Dog A was handled at the original tree so it retains it's points (plus, minus, or circle) but was not released from the tree per rules and should not be eligible to receive points on the tree with dogs C & D.

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Posted by JiM on 08-10-2014 09:20 PM:

Surely the handler of dog A didn't have the gall to strike and tree his dog after it got away and left the tree. If he did, I guess I would prolly just scratch him right there for attempting to cheat everyone on that cast. You obviously cannot gain additional points by your dog being loose when it is not allowed to be loose. I'm not too sure dog A shouldn't be minused his tree points for leaving the tree in first place. As I see it, any dog that leaves a tree before the judge tells it too is either minused for leaving the tree or scratch for casting before being told to.

Posted by joey on 08-10-2014 10:43 PM:

Dog A should be scored on his original tree and time should be called so the dog can be handled.

Before everyone wants me to quote the rule that I got this from I cant and I don't think anyone can find one that tells them what to do. This just seems the most logical to me.

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Posted by AndyMiller on 08-10-2014 11:04 PM:

dog a

if I was judge == dog ==a==wud get scored at the tree where he was first treed ==nothing == from there on till all dogs were handled an recast thrs nothing in the rule book about this == not unless it was done intenually ==but if the dog broke or chewed its leash he cud be struck in on the third bark with a line == that's the way I wud score it

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Posted by john Duemmer on 08-10-2014 11:05 PM:

I might be wrong on this one, Im going to minus dog A for leaving the tree, he is still carrying his strike points and score him on the second tree just the same as if he had left before being handled.

The problem i have with calling timeout is that if dogs C and D are not treed they would be foolish to vote for a timeout so you create a situation where how you deal with A depends on what C and D are doing.

To further make a case for minus, had a situation a couple years ago where a dog had been handled alone on a tree and was left while another tree was being scored. When we returned to score the tree the dog was gone and only part of the lead remained. The ruleing was to minus for leaveing eventhough the dog had been handled.

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Posted by joey on 08-10-2014 11:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I might be wrong on this one, Im going to minus dog A for leaving the tree, he is still carrying his strike points and score him on the second tree just the same as if he had left before being handled.

The problem i have with calling timeout is that if dogs C and D are not treed they would be foolish to vote for a timeout so you create a situation where how you deal with A depends on what C and D are doing.

Actually John I think you are correct. If I remember correctly Alan ruled that a dog that was treed and leashed at a split tree that chewed its leash and left would be minused. No different here.

Posted by JiM on 08-10-2014 11:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I might be wrong on this one, Im going to minus dog A for leaving the tree, he is still carrying his strike points and score him on the second tree just the same as if he had left before being handled.

The problem i have with calling timeout is that if dogs C and D are not treed they would be foolish to vote for a timeout so you create a situation where how you deal with A depends on what C and D are doing.

To further make a case for minus, had a situation a couple years ago where a dog had been handled alone on a tree and was left while another tree was being scored. When we returned to score the tree the dog was gone and only part of the lead remained. The ruleing was to minus for leaveing eventhough the dog had been handled.

This one works for me.

Posted by Whitelightnin on 08-11-2014 02:04 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Surely the handler of dog A didn't have the gall to strike and tree his dog after it got away and left the tree. If he did, I guess I would prolly just scratch him right there for attempting to cheat everyone on that cast. You obviously cannot gain additional points by your dog being loose when it is not allowed to be loose. I'm not too sure dog A shouldn't be minused his tree points for leaving the tree in first place. As I see it, any dog that leaves a tree before the judge tells it too is either minused for leaving the tree or scratch for casting before being told to.

"I guess I would prolly just scratch him right there"

Man you're a bit SCRATCH HAPPY ain't ya JIM?

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Posted by Pat Bizich on 08-11-2014 05:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by joey
Actually John I think you are correct. If I remember correctly Alan ruled that a dog that was treed and leashed at a split tree that chewed its leash and left would be minused. No different here.

There is a difference.The dog was handled and the tree scoring process had already started.
In the quoted scenario dog was handled but left before time was started.

To me it is comparable to seeing a coon before time is started because it can not be scored .Has to be seen during shine time.
You see a coon on the way into a tree before time starts you are out of luck.If a majority cast can not see it in the tree after shine time starts you can't score it.

Posted by Allen / UKC on 08-11-2014 05:31 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
I might be wrong on this one, Im going to minus dog A for leaving the tree, he is still carrying his strike points and score him on the second tree just the same as if he had left before being handled.

The problem i have with calling timeout is that if dogs C and D are not treed they would be foolish to vote for a timeout so you create a situation where how you deal with A depends on what C and D are doing.

To further make a case for minus, had a situation a couple years ago where a dog had been handled alone on a tree and was left while another tree was being scored. When we returned to score the tree the dog was gone and only part of the lead remained. The ruleing was to minus for leaveing eventhough the dog had been handled.

We would support John's theory on scoring dog in question.

Posted by T Felderman on 08-11-2014 05:46 PM:

So if going by John's Theory, my dog could accidently get loose before the tree is scored and I would only take minus strike pts. instead of strike and tree if its slick?

I always thought the judge has to say when to handle and cut the dogs.

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