UKC Forums - I Have Question,about Rules?

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Posted by Ron Brickles on 06-29-2008 03:36 PM:

I Have Question,about Rules?

IF YOU ARE ON A CAST AND AS YOU GET TO THE TREE ,ONE DOG JUST REACHES OVER AND GRABS THE OTHER BY THE HEAD AND STARTS FIGHTING THE OTHER FIGHTS BACK . ARE BOTH TO BE SCRATCHED OR THE ONE WHO CLEARLY STARTED THE FIGHT?? THANKS IN ADVANCE

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Posted by longshot on 06-29-2008 03:43 PM:

An absolutely worn out question that is on here oftin and never agreed on.

The rules state; if the aggressor is known, then scratch only the aggressor , if unknown scratch all dogs involved....

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Posted by Bill(Chew) on 06-29-2008 03:49 PM:

You only scratch only the aggressor if you know which dog started the fight. You sctatch all dogs involved only if you do not know which dog started it.

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Posted by Ron Brickles on 06-29-2008 03:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
An absolutely worn out question that is on here oftin and never agreed on.

The rules state; if the aggressor is known, then scratch only the aggressor , if unknown scratch all dogs involved....

I AGREE BUT,IN THIS CASE THE WHOLE FIGHT WAS SEEN IN MOST CASES THE FIGHT IS NOT SEEN IN THE INTIRE.

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Posted by longshot on 06-29-2008 03:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Ron Brickles
I AGREE BUT,IN THIS CASE THE WHOLE FIGHT WAS SEEN IN MOST CASES THE FIGHT IS NOT SEEN IN THE INTIRE.

In your case and if the description is correct , then the dog that took the first blow would be the only scratch.

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Posted by hntwitcurs on 06-29-2008 04:29 PM:

could you answer this for me my dog jumps at the base of the tree but doesn't have a mean hair on her the other night while at the tree she bumped the other dog pretty good and the other dog grabbed her the boy said i couldn't scratch his dog that there was just something on this samw subjest in the coonhound advisor thanx in advance jay dengg

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Posted by on 06-29-2008 04:40 PM:

Allen once made the statement that jacking the tree and bumping a dog around the tree is not aggressive behavior. Grabbing another dog because it got bumped IS aggressive behavior and should be scratched. So we need our dogs to be able to take the jumping and the bumping that goes on when mutiple dogs are treed together and if they can't take that kind of incidental contact around a tree without getting aggressive then they won't or shouldn't last long in a nite hunt.

Posted by MikeO on 06-29-2008 04:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Allen once made the statement that jacking the tree and bumping a dog around the tree is not aggressive behavior. Grabbing another dog because it got bumped IS aggressive behavior and should be scratched. So we need our dogs to be able to take the jumping and the bumping that goes on when mutiple dogs are treed together and if they can't take that kind of incidental contact around a tree without getting aggressive then they won't or shouldn't last long in a nite hunt.

nuff said scratch then write him up....and never let someone withdraw to avoid a scratch....even if a hound just face barks scratch and write him up.

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Posted by jculler8 on 06-29-2008 06:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by MikeO
nuff said scratch then write him up....and never let someone withdraw to avoid a scratch....even if a hound just face barks scratch and write him up.

last time i checked, face barking is not interference. you MUST have aggressive behavior AND interference to scratch.

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Posted by on 06-29-2008 06:35 PM:

Last time I heard Allen discuss this one, he stated face barking isn't even aggressive behavior.

The fact is, the rules REQUIRE dogs to bark or they get minused. The rules don't dictate treeing style and the rules don't dictate how a dog can or cannot bark. You cannot scratch a dog because you don't like the way it barks. There is no rule to support it.

Posted by Jerry West on 06-29-2008 07:48 PM:

What??? Just a face bark?? If a dog is intentionally trying to back a dog away from the tree by face barking...... That dog is interering with the other dog and attepting to start a fight. BY THE RULES, that dog must be scratched.
Let's get tuff on these aggressive dogs. Why not stop these foolish excuses, and get rid of these 'margin' and 'jockying' dogs. It might make things a little more enjoyable in our hunts.
This is my pet peve. There are lots of things that go on in hunts that may not always be 'just right'. Some gray areas that the rules are not too clear on. Things that are left up to honor and opinion. But this issue of aggreessive dogs needs to be dealt with and not 'soft balled'!

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Posted by jculler8 on 06-29-2008 08:27 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jerry West
What??? Just a face bark?? If a dog is intentionally trying to back a dog away from the tree by face barking...... That dog is interering with the other dog and attepting to start a fight. BY THE RULES, that dog must be scratched.
Let's get tuff on these aggressive dogs. Why not stop these foolish excuses, and get rid of these 'margin' and 'jockying' dogs. It might make things a little more enjoyable in our hunts.
This is my pet peve. There are lots of things that go on in hunts that may not always be 'just right'. Some gray areas that the rules are not too clear on. Things that are left up to honor and opinion. But this issue of aggreessive dogs needs to be dealt with and not 'soft balled'!

Then why was the rule changed so that you MUST have interference AND aggressive behavior? Before all you needed was 1 of those and now you need BOTH, if I am not mistaken... That's why it is read out the way it is by MOH before each and every hunt!

Posted by M.TARLTON on 06-29-2008 08:42 PM:

You cant scratch a dog just for face barking. If you are on a cast with a face barker and its face barking at your dog and your dog starts a fight in front of the cast your dog is the only one scratched. Tough luck!!!!

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Posted by MikeO on 06-29-2008 09:22 PM:

i would push to get your dog scratched if your dog face barks...imo thats aggressive behavior that will lead to a fight...face barking in my experiences always leads to the face barker biting at the other dog...may not be at the first tree or even when you got the light on him but it will happen...it may not be in the rulebook but face barking to me is trying to start a fight...if you folks dont think face barking is a bad thing just hunt with a rough dog for awhile you will see the light....im no expert and i dont claim to be but i wont tolerate a dog face barking and nipping at other dogs on tree.

Posted by MikeO on 06-29-2008 09:34 PM:

if your dog face barks that is interfering with other dogs treeing and it is aggressive behavior....i will suggest your dog be scratched and wrote up EVERYTIME!....you may disagree but that is my position on that....im a pretty easy going guy but i will not tolerate aggressive behavior at the tree.

Posted by GA DAWG on 06-29-2008 09:36 PM:

Even if the dog is face barking and biting at your dog and your dogs still treeing away you cant scratch em.According to the way the rule reads!!

Posted by MikeO on 06-29-2008 09:40 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by GA DAWG
Even if the dog is face barking and biting at your dog and your dogs still treeing away you cant scratch em.According to the way the rule reads!!

well thats a shame its written like that....i would still push to get a scratch and write up.

Posted by john Duemmer on 06-29-2008 10:15 PM:

Nobudy likes to draw out with a mean dog, but lets face it anytime you put 4 strange dogs together theres going to be some posturing for position. If we start scratching dogs for facebarking or bumping around on the tree whats next (judge i want that dog scratched he looked at my dog kinda funny). sometimes a little common sence goes a long way.

Posted by M.TARLTON on 06-29-2008 10:16 PM:

How are you going to push a dog to get scratched for facebarking when thats not in the rules? I dont have a face barker but rules are rules Ive hunted with them and as long as the others can take pressure theres no problem.

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Posted by M.TARLTON on 06-29-2008 10:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by john Duemmer
Nobudy likes to draw out with a mean dog, but lets face it anytime you put 4 strange dogs together theres going to be some posturing for position. If we start scratching dogs for facebarking or bumping around on the tree whats next (judge i want that dog scratched he looked at my dog kinda funny). sometimes a little common sence goes a long way.

AGREED!!!!!!

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Posted by longshot on 06-29-2008 10:20 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by longshot
[B]An absolutely worn out question that is on here oftin and never agreed on.

Now you see why I wrote the above post..... As for face barking , I wont tolorate it in my dogs and if I cant break them of it , they are gone...Not even a hard decision..

As for scratching a dog for it, the rule say you have to have BOTH interferance and aggression...I disagree with Jim and/ or Allen about face barking not being aggressive behavior. I think it is aggresive behavior , but that alone is not a scratchable offence.

If, in the process of face barking , contact is made and it intimidates or agitates another dog in any way , then that is interferance and scratchable.

On my cast , I inform the handler of a face barker that they are just one step away from a scratch and will be watched closely for interferance on every tree. You dont have to be rude or face bark yourself to make the point.

Tree jacking is NOT aggessive behavior. It is just an undesireable tree style.

The act of treeing is not a ladys tea party and some bumping and grinding is gonna happen and dogs should be able to tolorate it without getting mad or jellous .

I do hate face barkers , but remember , they have to interfere with another dogs ability to perform to be scratched under the rules, which in my mind includes any kind of contact during face barking.

You have to be able to take a good cussing in todays world , but you dont have to take being pushed around along with the cussing !!!

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Posted by MikeO on 06-29-2008 10:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by longshot
[QUOTE]Originally posted by longshot
[B]An absolutely worn out question that is on here oftin and never agreed on.

Now you see why I wrote the above post..... As for face barking , I wont tolorate it in my dogs and if I cant break them of it , they are gone...Not even a hard decision..

As for scratching a dog for it, the rule say you have to have BOTH interferance and aggression...I disagree with Jim and/ or Allen about face barking not being aggressive behavior. I think it is aggresive behavior , but that alone is not a scratchable offence.

If, in the process of face barking , contact is made and it intimidates or agitates another dog in any way , then that is interferance and scratchable.

On my cast , I inform the handler of a face barker that they are just one step away from a scratch and will be watched closely for interferance on every tree. You dont have to be rude or face bark yourself to make the point.

Tree jacking is NOT aggessive behavior. It is just an undesireable tree style.

The act of treeing is not a ladys tea party and some bumping and grinding is gonna happen and dogs should be able to tolorate it without getting mad or jellous .

I do hate face barkers , but remember , they have to interfere with another dogs ability to perform to be scratched under the rules, which in my mind includes any kind of contact during face barking.

You have to be able to take a good cussing in todays world , but you dont have to take being pushed around along with the cussing !!!

very well thought out and intelligent post...thats exactly what i wanted to say.

Posted by evan ashley on 06-30-2008 12:28 AM:

heres an input and probally going to get some negative response but i don't care. get a dog that is more independent and you usually wont have to worry about that if they are by thereselves all night.

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Posted by M.TARLTON on 06-30-2008 02:28 AM:

If you are on a cast with two indepentent dogs and two dogs that will hunt together you cant almost garantee you will not place very high in a big event. Just think a bout this for a min. The two independent dogs are goning to be by theirselves all night and the other two are going to hunt together. That means you will be walking to three trees every drop. That wastes lots of time that could be used on the next drop. When you have lots of slit treeing in a comp. hunt that is not on buckets there isnt going to be three coons on every creek you turn out on. So the dogs will have to go further wich means more time. If you score every tree on two drops the most you are going to have is 450 +. Where as another cast all dogs are hunting together and makes lots of quick trees and score alot more coons. First tree does meen that much when your at a large event when your dog doesnt get to tree but twice because you run outa time. If you score 4 coons and get a 2nd and 2nd thats 600 +. Whos the winner?

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 06-30-2008 01:09 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Last time I heard Allen discuss this one, he stated face barking isn't even aggressive behavior.

The fact is, the rules REQUIRE dogs to bark or they get minused. The rules don't dictate treeing style and the rules don't dictate how a dog can or cannot bark. You cannot scratch a dog because you don't like the way it barks. There is no rule to support it.

Jim, not sure what discussion you might be referring to as I am of the mind-set that face barking is in fact a form of aggressive behaviour. Rule 6(c) does not make provisions however to scratch a dog for face barking alone. If the face barking is in fact interfering with another dog's ability to perform then the cryteria required of both aggression and interference has been met and the dog would be scratched and reported as such.

Also to clarify any misconceptions, this was not a new rule two years ago. The UKC's interpretation on 6(c) has been like this since day one of 6(c). It's simply that publicly more emphasis has been put on the official interpretation of 6(c) in the last two years.

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