UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
- Redbones (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=51)
-- Question: when selling a pup, how many really get a chance? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928453409)

Question: when selling a pup, how many really get a chance?

When selling a pup from a great cross, how many of the pups out of a litter actually get a real chance at becoming a coondog? Many sell their puppies with great intentions, but to actually get a pup the time he/she needs in the woods is a different story. What do you think would be a percentage on how many pups get a real chance?

And are there any factors that determine a higher percentage of some pups getting in the woods?

John, the biggest factor in my opinion is the natural ability of the pup. If a pup shows that they have "it" then their owner will make time to hunt them. If the pup does not "excite" their owner then the owner will make up excuses why he can't hunt them. "I think" that a lot more depends on the pup than the handler/owner. If the owner thinks that a pup truly has "It" then he will make time to hunt it or find someone who will. I once sold a pup to a 8 yr old girl as a pet. Two years later her grandfather came up to me at a hunt and told me what a nice young dog that he turned out to be. He "acquired" the pup from her and took him hunting when he saw how nice he acted in the yard. You can place a pup with the top trainer in the country, but if they do not have "it" they won't get trained.

Guy Ormiston New Guide To Breeding

"To produce a credible strain of working dog... you must breed dogs that will almost train themselves. They must be dogs that can rise above everything from limited exposure to work/training to neglect, to abuse, and still make some fashion of a functional working dog. I would say only one potential user out of a hundred is a "real" dog trainer...a person who, first, will take the time to properly train a young dog and, secondly, knows how to go about it...a rare find indeed....Out of a litter of ten pups to a random sampling of users, only about two of those pups would have a fair chance of receiving a proper chance to perform their heritage."
John Wick probably has some good insight as well.

__________________
Rocky Comfort Redbones

Get a Chance or Earn a chance?

I think there are a lot of factors that determine if a dog is going to, "get a chance" or not.

Are they easy to have around the house or an annoying idiot?

When you show them a cage coon, do they get after it and want to engage? Will they look up?

When you take them to the woods, do they get gone and act like they want to go even if they come back?

Are they confident enough to be at the tree with the big dogs even though they might not know why?

If a pup shows this stuff, then they have EARNED a chance.

I'd say about 50% earn their chance. The other 50% are destined for something else.

I would also add that there are a lot of big $$$ pups that get passed off to other people because they "bought" their chance. On the flipside, a lot of crosses that are cheaper probably stay tied up longer than they should and end up, "lightly started" and priced about $500 bucks as a three year old.

Lots of good stuff said already about this. I would agree with Ed as well....maybe 2 out of 10. I also think if more folks would keep back a few pups to get going themselves and try to post their progress I believe it would help folks put time in theirs. Just my opinion on that. I realize too that not everyone has the space to be able to keep more than one pup. At the same time, if your breeding to keep yourself in dogs it only seems beneficial to keep 2-4 pups to get going so you can be happy with the one that stands out. I loved going to toms and see him take a few pups from a couple of crosses and get them going to see if they showed the traits he wanted to see.

I also believe John that folks take on to many pups at one time with good intentions but it's just to much. I was always hesitant to sell a good bred pup to someone that already has four young dogs, especially in thin coon country. I know I can start several pups but I can only hunt one at a time. Jmo.

__________________
Soggy Bottom Redbones


GRNTCH GRCH 'PR' Soggy Bottom The Frog Dawg (current reproducers list)
NTCH CH Soggy Bottom The Bull Dawg
Soggy Bottom T-Top Miss Dottie
RIP
GRNTCH GRCH Soggy Bottom T-Top Haze HTX (Former#1 Reproducer)
CH Soggy Bottom T-Top Stella
GRNTCH GRCH Soggy Bottom T-Top Shadow
NTCH CH Soggy Bottom Bomber's Red Wire (Pigeon- former #1 Reproducer)
NTCH GRCH Red Cedar T-Top Lexus
CH Soggy Bottom T-Top Locket


Mike Laster
540-392-2441
pastorlaster@aol.com

20% or less. And if you do all your homework expecting a good # of those "naturals" to be part of the litter, and you do your best they make it to hard hunters who like starting pups, have plenty of coon and are good at it, then maybe you can get close to 50%.

I'm no breeder, but I'm not blind either, and have learned the best breeder on the planet can do all they can but that seems to be the biggest challenge.

Good subject guys.

I have to agree with most of whats stated above. I think if pups show good potential and interest it's a lot easier to keep working with a dog. I only like to have just 2 to 3 dogs in my kennel at the same time spaced about 1.5 years apart that I'm working with. The biggest factor to me on training a young dog is if it hunts good by itself. If they don't hunt good by themselves or show some "natural" independence they will not last long in my kennel. I can deal with little trashyness, lack of tree, to much tree, or a track grubber, but I can't deal with something that's going to just do what everything does around it and wants to be with every dog in the woods. I do think a lot of factors go into percentages, the owners of the litters and how hard the people with the pups really put there time into it. I do think Adam and Chris are right in that usually it seems about 2 out of 10 pups make something. I have found that a lot of true redbone people seem to be more patient with dogs. The walker guys tend to give up on an off colored dog to early if it treeing coons by a really young age. This is a good subject guys. Keep it coming.

__________________
Jared Hutcheson
Indiana
Redbones:
GRNTCH PKC Ch PR Hutch's Big Walnut Boone HTX DNA-V(Haze X Reba)-
2 Time UKC World Top 100
UKC World Top 20 (13th)
UKC Purina Redbone of the year
PKC Redbone CH
UKC Top Producers List
UKC Winter Classic High Scoring Redbone
Co owned with Richard Lambert

GrNtCh PKC Ch One Chance Fancy- (Boone X Toadie)
2018 Autumn Oaks Grand 16
2018 Grand National Redbone
2018 Redbones Days RQE 1st Place

Walkers-
NTCh PKC CH Jeb’s Finley River Peanut- Co owned with Bishop Stallcop
Claremont PKC Legacy hunt Final 4
PKC Breeders Showcase Final 4

I think that probably 75% of young dogs never get a real chance. Despite that a lot of those dogs with real natural ability will at some point in there life be exposed to somebody who does know what it takes in a dog and will change hands and have a life of treeing coons in spite of the guy that purchased them as a puppy and hopefully at that point the dog doesn't have man made problems that cannot be fixed.

__________________
Nt Ch Turnback Creek Ike (JonxMissi)
Nt Ch Turnback Creek Kitty (single reg)
NtCh PR Turnback Creek Jammer RIP
(Steve-0 Chile cross first litter, C0-owned with Kim B Jones)
NtCh PR Hatcher Hill R.J.
RIP old friend

I liked to give every young dog or pups a chance,i like to start messing with them when they are young,playing with them around the yard sometimes take a walk through the woods make a drag anything to get them use to unfamiliar sites,they seem to turn out not being shy of the surroundings and people.thats just my opion,and yes I do have some bad luck from time to time,but they don't sit in my kennel with out getting a chance

__________________
George Steffes
Ph 419-212-2538
NT CH PR Southern Soggy Bottom Tilly { Gr ChGrNtCh Pr Ragged Ridge Ripsaw X Gr NT Ch Ragged Ridge Toadie }
CH Nt. Ch.PR Wandering Red & RR Bucksaw (GRCHGRNTCH Raged Ridge Rip X Grand Nite Raged Ridge Toadie )
GRNTCH.GRCh.PR Steffes' Whizz Bang[GRNTCH Big Walnut BooneXGRNTCH Raged Ridge Toadie]
GRCH.Wandering Red Pepper
GRCH.Wandering Red Honeys Sweety Pie

RIP
GR.NT.CH.GR.CH.PR Steffes wandering Red Tinkerbell {GRCHGRNTCH Raged Ridge RipsawXGRNTCH Ragged Ridge Toadie]

I say 1 out of 25 on average.
Everyone has good intentions of starting a pup but by the time you take it home at 6 weeks old,feed it,put up with chewing,barking,and everything else that goes along with raising a pup by the time it's big enough to start your wore out with it so you on to something else. It hits jockey row after you trade it off to a pocket knife.

Few,and I think few,will spend enough daily time with a pup,walk it through the woods,lay drags,take it hunting,and lay out there with it to make a good dog.

I say few because if as many did that thought they were going to when they buy a pup there would be a lot more coon treeing,good handling,coon dogs roaming around.

The old timers are leaving and all the younger wants to do is hit a hunt. They have never been taught to throw a rifle on their back and hunt.

I know there are exceptions but on average I feel the above is true.

__________________
Get a Good One

[QUOTE]Originally posted by high ridge
I say 1 out of 25 on average.
Everyone has good intentions of starting a pup but by the time you take it home at 6 weeks old,feed it,put up with chewing,barking,and everything else that goes along with raising a pup by the time it's big enough to start your wore out with it so you on to something else. It hits jockey row after you trade it off to a pocket knife.

Few,and I think few,will spend enough daily time with a pup,walk it through the woods,lay drags,take it hunting,and lay out there with it to make a good dog.

I say few because if as many did that thought they were going to when they buy a pup there would be a lot more coon treeing,good handling,coon dogs roaming around.

The old timers are leaving and all the younger wants to do is hit a hunt. They have never been taught to throw a rifle on their back and hunt.

I know there are exceptions but on average I feel the above is true. [/
QUOTE] LOL I agree with this 100 %
Loading a gun up and taking a pup out buy its self is about a thing of the past, heck most think they don't need to even take a gun'to make a good dog these days
LOL I say put the meat to pups , if coon mess them up I don't want them anyway

__________________
John Wilson