UKC Forums - I think the ukc RULES are screwed up on the ZONES

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-- I think the ukc RULES are screwed up on the ZONES (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928270727)

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 03:29 AM:

I think the ukc RULES are screwed up on the ZONES

How does someones dog with a score at the zones of either:

A- one night the dog scores a zero and the other night a CW 200+

B- one night with a minus final score and the other night score of a CW 200+

Beat a dog with one night CW 200+ and the other night of 175+
I don't see how the A and B beat the dog with plus points both night with a cast win of 0 or minus final score . The A and B dog are going to the world with minus points or a zero as a final score but the dog with same amount of CW POINTS with no minus or a zero as s final score is not going to the world . Don't see how that is right

Thanks
Judd Johnson
(903)826-9429

Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 09-17-2012 03:39 AM:

Holy crap why is this so hard to understand. My dog can me tooooooo all night and score 800 plus right behind a dog that won the cast scoring 900 plus. Is that something to be proud of?

You understand that if a dog doesn't win the cast NOBODY CARES HOW MUCH PLUS IT HAD.

IT IS NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT A TWO NIGHT COMBINED SCORE!!! BOTH NIGHTS ARE ENTIRELY DIFFERENT!!!

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Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 03:47 AM:

First off the dog didn't me to. Next I was just saying that the rules are jacked up seriously

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 03:53 AM:

Zone 7 .... and a Dog named medelys hard wood troy and the dogs in 23 24 25 26 place

Posted by ONEDOGNIGHT on 09-17-2012 03:53 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Judd Johnson
First off the dog didn't me to.

ARE YOU SURE?

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 03:56 AM:

I was the back up handler yes I am sure

Posted by ONEDOGNIGHT on 09-17-2012 03:58 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Judd Johnson
I was the back up handler yes I am sure

Can the dog tree a coon?

Posted by Nathan Lattimer on 09-17-2012 03:59 AM:

It's really simple and not jacked up. ONLY CAST WINING SCORES ARE CONSIDERED FOR PLACEMENT. Obviously this hound lost the tie breaker based on that nights score. Period.

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***GRNTCH LATE NITE BIG BUBBA 6/15/97 - 12/24/09***

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 04:01 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by easttxranch
Now I see what you are saying. It happened in Zone 7. I sure hope someone from UKC can explain this.

Dog A Fri -150 Sat +200 CW
Dog B Fri +200 CW Sat 0
Dog C Fri +200 CW Sat 0
Dog D Fri +175 Sat +200 CW

Why do dogs A,B,&C make it and Dog D doesn't? I thought if dogs had the same Cast Winning score, they would go to the other scores.

Now you see what I am talking about

Posted by Nathan Lattimer on 09-17-2012 04:04 AM:

No I don't.
Only the cast winning scores are considered. Pretend that the other points don't exist because really they don't.

They only compare the CAST WINNING scores and break a tie with normal tie breaking rules with least minus, first trees, first strikes, circle points etc.... all with the cast winning scores!

__________________
***GRNTCH LATE NITE BIG BUBBA 6/15/97 - 12/24/09***

Posted by JJ on 09-17-2012 04:04 AM:

if you were confused at the zones, don't attend autumn oaks. that will traumatize you.

Posted by Chiggers on 09-17-2012 04:04 AM:

Tie breaker would be least minus on the night in question, the other night had no bearing.

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Posted by Tim MACHA on 09-17-2012 04:06 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by easttxranch
Now I see what you are saying. It happened in Zone 7. I sure hope someone from UKC can explain this.

Dog A Fri -150 Sat +200 CW
Dog B Fri +200 CW Sat 0
Dog C Fri +200 CW Sat 0
Dog D Fri +175 Sat +200 CW

Why do dogs A,B,&C make it and Dog D doesn't? I thought if dogs had the same Cast Winning score, they would go to the other scores.

First off, only the 200 cast wins would count and the MOH would refer to the tie breakers as referred to on the back of the card. Only if a tie could not be broken, would the other nights score come into play. After double cast winners are picked then it refers to the highest one night cast win score. If one follows the outline of how the winners place, it is easy to understand.

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Posted by Patrick Moore on 09-17-2012 04:06 AM:

Looks like Zone 7.

These 3 dogs did not advance:

Dog #46 Had a 200+ Cast win on Friday & 175+ on Saturday.

Dog #41 Had a 200+ CW on Friday & 200- on Saturday.

Dog # 298 Had a 200+ CW on Friday & 250- on Saturday

There were 26 dogs placed for the finals in Zone 7.
These 4 dogs listed in positions 23 - 26 Advanced & had 200+ cast winning scores with varying non-CW scores another night.

# 469 had 25- on Friday & 200+ CW on Saturday

# 475 had 200+ CW on Friday & 150- on Saturday

#216 had zero on Friday & 200+ CW on Saturday

#384 had zero on Friday & 200+ CW on Saturday

Note: My personal opinion is that after all double cast winners are determined in a zone and they are filling the remaining spots with single cast winners & you run into a situation like this in Zone 7 with multiple single CW scores that are the same - UKC should use the other night's score as the tie-break

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 04:06 AM:

I just think it's stupid rules honestly I do ... the way they do it mite ad well just hunt ones night seriously

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 04:10 AM:

Yes Patrick I know dogs #46 scores are correct I was back up handler

Posted by ONEDOGNIGHT on 09-17-2012 04:11 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Judd Johnson
Yes Patrick I know dogs #46 scores are correct I was back up handler

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!

Posted by Tim MACHA on 09-17-2012 04:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Moore
Looks like Zone 7.

These 3 dogs did not advance:

Dog #46 Had a 200+ Cast win on Friday & 175+ on Saturday.

Dog #41 Had a 200+ CW on Friday & 200- on Saturday.

Dog # 298 Had a 200+ CW on Friday & 250- on Saturday

There were 26 dogs placed for the finals in Zone 7.
These 4 dogs listed in positions 23 - 26 Advanced & had 200+ cast winning scores with varying non-CW scores another night.

# 469 had 25- on Friday & 200+ CW on Saturday

# 475 had 200+ CW on Friday & 150- on Saturday

#216 had zero on Friday & 200+ CW on Saturday

#384 had zero on Friday & 200+ CW on Saturday

First off, forget Saturday's score on Dogs 46, 41 & 298. In this case they have no relavence at all, so forget about them. Now, the MOH will look at the 200 cast win scores and decide which 200 wins over the other by least minus points, etc as described on how to break a tie. How much clearer can it be?

__________________
OFFICIAL FIELD TESTER FOR LEMS LIGHTS

Good people do not need laws to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws (Plato)

Posted by englishbuddy on 09-17-2012 04:13 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by easttxranch
Now I see what you are saying. It happened in Zone 7. I sure hope someone from UKC can explain this.

Dog A Fri -150 Sat +200 CW
Dog B Fri +200 CW Sat 0
Dog C Fri +200 CW Sat 0
Dog D Fri +175 Sat +200 CW

Why do dogs A,B,&C make it and Dog D doesn't? I thought if dogs had the same Cast Winning score, they would go to the other scores.

We are not see all the score card !!!!! Dog d may have had 400 + and 200 - .... the only 2 night score is double cast wins...... A dog with double cast wins of 25 + and 25+ beats a dog with 1 cast win with 1025 + !!!!!! Dog d's friday night 175+ without a cast win means NOTHING !!!!!

Posted by Nathan Lattimer on 09-17-2012 04:17 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by easttxranch
If it is so simple, please explain. All 4 dogs won their cast with
+200. How do they eliminate one?

OK I will try to explain this.......I would imagine that those dogs were put down on the score card for more than for just their 200+. Like they were struck in and took a minus on the 8 or the 2 caught them or they came back in and minused strike etc. Or maybe they treed a big leafy tree that was circled.

So whatever the case is we must go through the UKC tie breaking system. The first tie breaker is minus points. So if at anytime during the 2 hour hunt they took a minus even though they finished with 200+ like the other 3 they would lose the cast if the other 3 took 0 minus. Like maybe they had 225+ but took a 25 minus on a strike, well even though they had 200+ like the other 3 they would lose because they had minus and the ohters did not.

Now let's say that none of the 4 took minus. So we would go to the next tie breaker which is plus tree points. Now in order for them all to have 200 plus with 0 minus they all had to take 75 strike and 125 tree so we would have to skip down to the circle points portion of the rules and if the 4th hound did not have any or had the least amount of circle points they would lose the cast as well.

There are multiple senarios but these are a few that I hope will clear it up.

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Posted by Patrick Moore on 09-17-2012 04:19 AM:

Note:
My personal opinion is that after all double cast winners are determined in a zone and they are filling the remaining spots with single cast winners & you run into a situation like this in Zone 7 with multiple single CW scores that are the same - UKC should use the other night's score as the tie-break.
It just seems to be more fair to all involved.

Posted by Tim MACHA on 09-17-2012 04:36 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Patrick Moore
Note:
My personal opinion is that after all double cast winners are determined in a zone and they are filling the remaining spots with single cast winners & you run into a situation like this in Zone 7 with multiple single CW scores that are the same - UKC should use the other night's score as the tie-break.
It just seems to be more fair to all involved.

Right there you made the point of your error. The CW scores are not the same. They may end of with the same number but how the number was determined is the difference in tie breaking situations.

__________________
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Good people do not need laws to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws (Plato)

Posted by Judd Johnson on 09-17-2012 04:36 AM:

I am with you Patrick i think the same ... but I would like to congratulate everyone that got in I ain't trying to take nothing away from them dogs that got in just saying the rules are a little screwed up ..

Posted by Nathan Lattimer on 09-17-2012 04:47 AM:

They're not really screwed up. It's no different than if there were 16 dogs entered at a local $15 UKC hunt and all four cast winners came back in with 200+. Would they all get a first place win? No you would go through the tie breaking sequence to place them 1-4 respectively. The exact same thing happened here except they ran out of places to give and the fourth dog with 200+ goes home. Sorry I know it stinks but its all consistant with the UKC scoring system.

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Posted by Hoosier Man1 on 09-17-2012 04:48 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Judd Johnson
I am with you Patrick i think the same ... but I would like to congratulate everyone that got in I ain't trying to take nothing away from them dogs that got in just saying the rules are a little screwed up ..

Your logic is way way off Judd.

You do not award dogs that don't win their cast. EVER!

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