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-- Face Barking in a hunt (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928536229)

Face Barking in a hunt

I've heard from some folks while at hunts that you can hunt a dog in a hunt that face barks. As long as they don't take hold of another dog is that true? I've seen dogs in the past that would do it if dogs were jacking a tree so I'm assuming some of that happens from a dog who has been hunted with dogs that jacks a tree. So if a dog was in a hunt would it be scratched for that behavior?

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John Cox
580 284 8378

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Here are what the rules say.
6. SCRATCHING OFFENSES
Dog Related Offense:
(b) For fighting or attempting to fight* during the authority of the Judge. When the aggressive dog is known, scratch the aggressor only. If not known, scratch dogs involved. Withdrawing to avoid dog being reported for fighting is not permitted.

*18. DEFINITIONS
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing aggressive behavior and 2) interfering with another dog(s) during the authority of the Judge.

* My Thoughts- So if a dog is Face Barking there is a good chance it will be determined the dog is interfering with another dog. Looking at and barking in another dogs face will probably be determined as showing aggression and the dog will be scratched.

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www.ConkeysOutdoors.com
"Boss Lights"

That's what I was thinking, thanks for the response

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John Cox
580 284 8378

I have heard a lot of handlers (those with face barkers) say that the rule means "no harm, no foul". If a dog doesn't leave then it hasn't been interfered with.
There seems to be a big difference of opinion. One man's face barker is another man's hard tree dog.

The dog has to be doing both showing aggression and interfering. Facebarking is not fighting so both criteria must be met. If the dog has not interfered with another dog it is not scratched. Simply looking at another dog while barking is not enough if the other dog is still able to tree.

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Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER, 2025 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

I do not like face barking but Redneck Mafia is correct.

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Bill Harper
Washington, NC
252-944-5592

Call Wild Willy and you won't have to worry about it.

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Donald Bergeron

Interfering

I don’t know ukc interpretation of interference but to me a dog wouldn’t have to quit treeing or leave tree to have interference.

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Bob Turnbow 931-212-0069

Face barking is not scratchable per the rules and UKC's previous interpretations of the rules.

You must have aggressive behavior AND interference. One is not enough.

The face barking would literally have to be bad enough to keep another dog from treeing.

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Let's go huntin

That’s

A stretch to me Rip but if that’s what ukc says I’m good with it.

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Bob Turnbow 931-212-0069

Face barking is aggressive behavior....
When two or more dogs engage in face barking their interfering w/each other.
(JMO).
But as stated already, unless they roll, dogs involved be best to hold their get gound !

quote:

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Originally posted by Rip
Face barking is not scratchable per the rules and UKC's previous interpretations of the rules.

You must have aggressive behavior AND interference. One is not enough.

The face barking would literally have to be bad enough to keep another dog from treeing.

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Interpretation

The problem with this rule is everyone's opinion is different and hunters have their own interpretation. Aggression is Aggression boys. And Face barking is interference. If a judge see's a hound clearly face barking that dog should be scratched. The rule is worded so that a dog that is excited at the tree and jumping and lands on another dog does not get scratched. That action lacks aggression but he did interfere. Face barking you have aggression + interference therefore you scratch. And for those of you who say face barking is not interference make sure you train all your pups with that face barking/mean dog and see how many nice tree dogs you produce!

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Roy Jarman

Re: Interpretation

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan&Ann
The problem with this rule is everyone's opinion is different and hunters have their own interpretation. Aggression is Aggression boys. And Face barking is interference. If a judge see's a hound clearly face barking that dog should be scratched. The rule is worded so that a dog that is excited at the tree and jumping and lands on another dog does not get scratched. That action lacks aggression but he did interfere. Face barking you have aggression + interference therefore you scratch. And for those of you who say face barking is not interference make sure you train all your pups with that face barking/mean dog and see how many nice tree dogs you produce!

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__________________
Cheyenne & Jennifer Cummings
Seneca , MO
(417)317-4815
"TEAM MAFIA"
*NATIONAL GRNITECH GRCH GRNITECH(5) HALL OF FAME PKC PLATIUM CH REDNECK BACKWOODS SHACK
2014 OK STATE CH, 2015 MO PKC LEADER, 2016 PKC NATIONALS SEMIFINALIST, 2016 UKC TOP 20, 2O17 UKC WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP 3RD PLACE, 2018 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4, 2018 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION, 2019 AUTUMN OAKS NATIONAL GRNITE CH, 2019 PKC WORLD CH SEMIFINALIST. 2021 PKC SENIOR SHOWDOWN TRUCK HUNT FINAL 4.
*PKC WORLD CHAMPION PLATNIUM CHAMPION GRNITECH SHACK'S HEATHER ISLAND SOUTHERN STOGIE
2021 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2022 PKC WORLD CHAMPION, 2022 MO PKC STATE LEADER PRO SPORT TRUCK WINNER, 2025 MO PKC STATE CHAMPION

RIP
*GRNITECH PKC SCH REDNECK MAFIA PKC HALL OF FAME REPRODUCER INDUCTED 2022
*GRNITECH CH PKC SILVER CH REDNECK SHACK ATTACK aka TAC 2018 OKLAHOMA STATE CHAMPION, 2020 MO PKC STATE LEADER

The only opinion or interpretation that matters is that of UKC.

Definition

Definition clearly states and I Quote SCRATCH FOR ATTEMPTING TO FIGHT ------ATTEMPTING TO FIGHT DEFINED ="SHOWING AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR". So in your OPINION face barking is not showing AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR? So like I said it all comes down to interpretation! I interpret aggressive behavior clearly as face barking and a lot of people do not. UKC is pretty clear on the rule but some of us chose to interpret it in a fashion that protects our aggressive hounds at the tree. I will cull him and you feed him. No problem just two different interpretations!

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Roy Jarman

Challenge

I challenge anyone to find me an ad of a coon hound for sale that states that the hound for sale is a hard, face barking, aggressive, tree dog. We all know they are out there for sale but why do people chose to hide that fact. Because it is a fault that's why and one we should be breeding out and scratching at the hunts. But that would not be popular. But this is just my opinion or interpretation you might say!

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Roy Jarman

The rule interpretation depends on whose dog is face barking. Plain and simple.

Re: Definition

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan&Ann
Definition clearly states and I Quote SCRATCH FOR ATTEMPTING TO FIGHT ------ATTEMPTING TO FIGHT DEFINED ="SHOWING AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR". So in your OPINION face barking is not showing AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR? So like I said it all comes down to interpretation! I interpret aggressive behavior clearly as face barking and a lot of people do not. UKC is pretty clear on the rule but some of us chose to interpret it in a fashion that protects our aggressive hounds at the tree. I will cull him and you feed him. No problem just two different interpretations!

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Let's go huntin

change

Then they NEED to change the rule.

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Always be yourself because the people that matter dont mind and the people that mind dont matter.Rock River Plotts

This is something so easy to fix I don't know why it's a discussion.

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Donald Bergeron

easy fix per new rules. if dogs are on a lead it doesn't matter. they can be gnawing on each other. no scratch.
seriously this is why there are so any hard feelings after a hunt. these guys don't know the rules and try to twist them to suit them self that they think it means.
the rule has been forever i can remember....You must have aggressive behavior AND interference.

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Face barking/Rules

Mafia and Rip were 100 percent correct as usual, while no one may like face barking ( I do not ) it is NOT a scratchable offence. I will not tolerate face barking on any of my dogs pleasure or competition hunting. We can not let our biases interfere with what the RULES actual say and therein lies the problem with some folks. We may not like certain behavior or even certain RULES , but we should always go by these RULES to ensure everyone is treated the same from hunt to hunt. Please DO NOT let your personal bias sway you in interpreting any RULE. One should be able to accept the UKC RULES if you are going to hunt in UKC HUNTS, like the RULE or not. I am sure that most of us have some bias against at least one RULE, but that bias is on us like it or not and NOT on the RULE. Dave

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Mafia and rip are not correct either.
The rules are the rules.
I have had a dog that wouldn't tree with a face barker so if they was in a cast with a sissy dog like I owned would they say ok I'm scratched... yeah I don't think so.
But if they was correct and honest they would say yes scratch my dog I'll go home. Aggressive and interference per the other handlers word.
I'm not trying to pick on anyone but trying to make my point.

If your going to hunt competition a sissy dog is as worthless as the too Aggressive dogs.

quote:

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Originally posted by pamjohnson
Mafia and rip are not correct either.
The rules are the rules.
I have had a dog that wouldn't tree with a face barker so if they was in a cast with a sissy dog like I owned would they say ok I'm scratched... yeah I don't think so.
But if they was correct and honest they would say yes scratch my dog I'll go home. Aggressive and interference per the other handlers word.
I'm not trying to pick on anyone but trying to make my point.

If your going to hunt competition a sissy dog is as worthless as the too Aggressive dogs.

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Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses