UKC Forums - Judge this??

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Posted by john Duemmer on 10-03-2012 03:03 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by englishbuddy
The dogs are not at large they move over to dogs a an b's original dead tree......

Well aparently they leave that one to because one was handled 75yds. away. pg.2 kinda confusing scenario.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-03-2012 03:16 AM:

He may be handled away from tree but if he is seen on the dead tree he has no strike points to minus because they have been deleted.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-03-2012 03:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
The main thing that is being missed is that this is not a scoring situation. When the rule states no points will be awarded then it can not be scored period. Delete is the only way it can be handled. Once the tree is seen to be a previously scored tree then the tree points are deleted right then. The eight should then be put on the other two. If they come back to the tree strike is deleted. The ones that left should not have been handled until the eight got them. Running one down 75 yards away was stupid on the handlers part. He should have been scratched if his dog was still holding strike points and time was still in. Sounds like the judge and cast members really created a mess.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 10-03-2012 03:25 AM:

It all boils down to this...Do the dogs need to be handled to be scored on this tree?My interpratation is yes they do.Several others is no they don't.If the answer is no,my next question is why is this tree any different than any other scoring situation on a tree in UKC?I can't think of any other situation where you can make any ruling on a tree and score a dog at that tree without handling it there first?

Allen or Todd,can one of you please answer and explain?If I'm doing this wrong I sure need to know.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 10-03-2012 03:33 AM:

Plus,minus,circle,and delete are all scoring situations to me.you have to do something on the card with said tree.To me,you need to be scoring the TREE CALL first,not the tree itself.Is just seeing the dog there enough,or does it need to be handled first,because every other tree call that is made,the dog has got to be handled there or be minused for moving.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 10-03-2012 03:37 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
It all boils down to this...Do the dogs need to be handled to be scored on this tree?My interpratation is yes they do.Several others is no they don't.If the answer is no,my next question is why is this tree any different than any other scoring situation on a tree in UKC?I can't think of any other situation where you can make any ruling on a tree and score a dog at that tree without handling it there first?

Allen or Todd,can one of you please answer and explain?If I'm doing this wrong I sure need to know.

The very first scoring situation that happens at every tree happens before the dogs are handled. thats why the judge is the first one in and dogs cant be handled until the judge gives the OK.
the first thing the jude determins is which dogs are there and if they are treeing satisfactorly. Now suppose the first thing the judge determins in this situation is that the dogs are on a previously scored tree, this could be done from a short distance from the tree and well before the dogs are handled.

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Posted by stillwater farm on 10-03-2012 04:09 AM:

I give up.LOL.Todd or Allen please answer......

When a dog has been declared treed,does the dog need to be handled at that tree BEFORE making a scoring determination on said tree,(plus,minus,circle,or delete)or is it minused if it leaves before being HANDLED there?

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Posted by l.lyle on 10-03-2012 04:19 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
I give up.LOL.Todd or Allen please answer......

When a dog has been declared treed,does the dog need to be handled at that tree BEFORE making a scoring determination on said tree,(plus,minus,circle,or delete)or is it minused if it leaves before being HANDLED there?

Plus, minus or circle is my only question in that situation OR DELETE . One or the other . When else and under what other circumstances do you get four choices to choose from?

Posted by stillwater farm on 10-03-2012 03:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
I give up.LOL.Todd or Allen please answer......

When a dog has been declared treed,does the dog need to be handled at that tree BEFORE making a scoring determination on said tree,(plus,minus,circle,or delete)or is it minused if it leaves before being HANDLED there?

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Posted by jabrown on 10-03-2012 04:21 PM:

Page 55 of the current Advisor deals with the issue of a dog leaving a previously scored tree. In that scenario the dog was struck in but not treed. When the cast arrived, they saw the dog leave the tree. The Advisor says that when you know for sure that the dog was on a previously scored tree you delete the strike points even if the dog wasn't handled, which is consistent with rule 5(e): no points, not even circle points to be awarded to a dog that returns to a previously scored tree.

I know that these two scenarios are different, but the point is that UKC has stated that if you know for sure that they were on a scored tree, delete the points. Don't know if a dog being treed would change their position on this, but I personally don't think it would in light of the wording of rule 5(e) and the ruling on page 55 of the Advisor.

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Posted by Cheyenne on 10-03-2012 06:36 PM:

rule 4 C takes it where it all starts. if not every time a dog leaves a tree everyone is going to be hollaring it was the same tree. once a dog is declared everything else goes out the window until the 5 is up or all dogs have been treed. it ain't that hard. people are so wanting to get out of taking minus points they deserve its crazy!

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Posted by Rip on 10-03-2012 07:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by jabrown
Page 55 of the current Advisor deals with the issue of a dog leaving a previously scored tree. In that scenario the dog was struck in but not treed. When the cast arrived, they saw the dog leave the tree. The Advisor says that when you know for sure that the dog was on a previously scored tree you delete the strike points even if the dog wasn't handled, which is consistent with rule 5(e): no points, not even circle points to be awarded to a dog that returns to a previously scored tree.

I know that these two scenarios are different, but the point is that UKC has stated that if you know for sure that they were on a scored tree, delete the points. Don't know if a dog being treed would change their position on this, but I personally don't think it would in light of the wording of rule 5(e) and the ruling on page 55 of the Advisor.

Well that right there nails it. They only seen the dog in the Advisor too, it wasn't handled.

That goes to my origional point. You can't "unsee" something or "unknow" something. If you KNOW that the dogs are on a previously scored tree those points are deleted right then and there, as soon as you KNOW.

Everybody is trying to change what happened here but in the origional post it was worded so that everybody knew the dogs were on a previously scored tree and they saw the dog and then it left. Well going strictly by the rules those points are deleted immediately.

Now if there was any question that the dog was on a previously scored tree then the tree points are minused. Nobody is saying any different.

BUT that's not how the origional question reads. It reads like there is no doubt because they saw the dog treeing on the previously scored tree. In that case it's delete.

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Posted by Rip on 10-03-2012 07:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Cheyenne
rule 4 C takes it where it all starts. if not every time a dog leaves a tree everyone is going to be hollaring it was the same tree. once a dog is declared everything else goes out the window until the 5 is up or all dogs have been treed. it ain't that hard. people are so wanting to get out of taking minus points they deserve its crazy!

That would be no different than everybody hollerin "he was shut out". You can't just make stuff up.

You have to go by the order of the rules. When a rule is written that covers a specific situation then that rule over rides everything else. Going back to a previously scored tree has it's own section. NO TIMES are kept and NO SCORES are allowed, period. That rule goes into effect as soon as you know for a fact that they are on a previously scored tree. It even gives you leeway if you THINK they are on a previously scored tree that you can go investigate immediately.

It's no different than the rule that says "no points for a dog coming into a tree after the judge arrives". Doesn't matter about all the quit track rules or whatever if it comes in after the judge arrives that is a specific situation that takes precidence over everything else and it can only be minused if a coon is seen and plus points are awarded.

Same here, specific rule for a specific situation takes precedence over the rest of the rules. No points allowed.

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Posted by GA DAWG on 10-03-2012 10:35 PM:

Rip what's the answer in Pkc? Jim? Can I scratch one without it being handled on the same tree.

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Posted by southernthunder on 10-04-2012 07:17 PM:

just got off the phone with Todd and he said they are minused!!! he said that they should have never called them treed, but sense they did they had to be handled at the tree under a leash. he said that any time a dog is declared treed, no matter what situation, that the dogs must be handled before you can do anything with a score or no score.

there is the answer from Todd at UKC

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Posted by southernthunder on 10-04-2012 07:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by stillwater farm
I give up.LOL.Todd or Allen please answer......

When a dog has been declared treed,does the dog need to be handled at that tree BEFORE making a scoring determination on said tree,(plus,minus,circle,or delete)or is it minused if it leaves before being HANDLED there?

lol i posted Todd's answer to the senario and he said MINUS

Posted by turman on 10-04-2012 09:11 PM:

So you asked him and stated that the dogs were seen on a scored tree? And he said minus? I wish he would have just came on here and said that a week ago!

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Posted by Rip on 10-04-2012 10:11 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
lol i posted Todd's answer to the senario and he said MINUS

I don't believe you presented it appropriately.

I think you asked it like you did in the post above saying can dogs be scored before they are handled.

The reason is because the Advisor has already stated that dogs don't have to be handled to be scored on a previously scored tree. All they have to do is be seen on it.

Anything else would be going against the Advisor and Todd doesn't do that.

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Posted by john Duemmer on 10-04-2012 10:18 PM:

Really wondering why after 10 days and 10 pages of conjecture we cant get an opinion from UKC. I have to agree with RIP. on this, i would be surprised by a ruling that is in direct conflict with the Advisor and the scorecard.

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Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-04-2012 10:20 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Rip
I don't believe you presented it appropriately.

I think you asked it like you did in the post above saying can dogs be scored before they are handled.

The reason is because the Advisor has already stated that dogs don't have to be handled to be scored on a previously scored tree. All they have to do is be seen on it.

Anything else would be going against the Advisor and Todd doesn't do that.

I agree with you Rip. Todd needs to read how the original post is stated. Rip maybe you should call Todd and give him the whole scenerio and I bet he would stick by the Advisor ruling.

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Posted by southernthunder on 10-04-2012 11:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by turman
So you asked him and stated that the dogs were seen on a scored tree? And he said minus? I wish he would have just came on here and said that a week ago!

i told him exactly what the man described happened and that 2 dogs left from that tree and he said because they made the tree call they had to be handled, but because they were seen moving they were minused! he stated that any time a dog is called treed they have to be handled period.

Posted by southernthunder on 10-04-2012 11:12 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by nccoonhunter197
I agree with you Rip. Todd needs to read how the original post is stated. Rip maybe you should call Todd and give him the whole scenerio and I bet he would stick by the Advisor ruling.

i agree you conspiracy theory guys need to call him yourself. maybe that way you won't have to question the one that did!
some of you are impossible!

Posted by nccoonhunter197 on 10-04-2012 11:45 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
i agree you conspiracy theory guys need to call him yourself. maybe that way you won't have to question the one that did!
some of you are impossible!

I was simplyvstating that if the Advisor says one thing then maybe he misunderstood the scenerio. Then again maybe the tree call is the deciding factor.

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Posted by joey on 10-04-2012 11:56 PM:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by john Duemmer
Really wondering why after 10 days and 10 pages of conjecture we cant get an opinion from UKC. I have to agree with RIP. on this, i would be surprised by a ruling that is in direct conflict with the Advisor and the scorecard. [/QUOTE

Allen has stated before that no matter what once a dog has been called treed he is responsible for that call. Its obvious that no amount of reasoning from either side will solve it. We need to here directly from UKc. Just as you would be surprised so would I if he allows the dogs to be deleted after being called treed. I understand what the advisor said but the dog in that case was not treed in. Either way if they would just let me know what they want done then thats how I will do it.

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Posted by Rip on 10-04-2012 11:58 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by southernthunder
i agree you conspiracy theory guys need to call him yourself. maybe that way you won't have to question the one that did!
some of you are impossible!

Look I know that is what you want, you WANT to minus the dog becuse in your mind "it's just right". We are just different here because I frankly don't care, I just care about scoring it appropriately AS THE RULES ARE WRITTEN. Lots of things aren't right but have to be scored a certian way because of the written rules.

So you have to look at something called Heirchy. If there is a rule that describes a specific situation then that rule over rules the rest (just like no dog to get minus for coming in after the judge arrives, he can quit 15 tracks and come in and not get minused for quitting track because there is a rule for that specific situation that over rides it).

Now we have to look at this situation. Is there a rule about what happens when dogs go back to a previously scored tree? Yes there is so that means it comes in on top of everything else. It is the most important rule. That rule says NO POINTS. No points means none, not plus, minus or circle NONE will be awarded on a previously scored tree. So that pretty much settles it right there. The tree rules would be secondary to this rule because this rule is for a specific situation. Until you know the dogs are on the previously scored tree then the dogs would be subject to minus, but as soon as you KNOW (not think but KNOW as in see with your own eyes) that they are on a previously scored tree then you have to delete the points.

Then you see the advisor saying that yes strike points are deleted even though the dogs weren't handled because NO POINTS are to go on a previously scored tree. So we have precidence there that dogs indeed do NOT have to be handled for those points to be deleted, reason would say tree points would be handled the same as strike since the rule is very clear and says NO POINTS.

Now the only way we can score those dogs minus is IF there is a previous advisor on this making the ruling that they have to be handled if they are declared treed. I fully admit that I can't remember every single advisor and this is a POSSIBILITY, but without that, unless and until Allen or Todd make a ruling to that effect then we MUST delete those points as soon as the dogs are seen to be at a previously scored tree.

If Todd or Allen decide that today and make it official then that's the way it is, but that would apply from today foward and yesterday the correct way to score it would have been delete (again unless there already has been an official ruling earlier on this that we don't know about).

I'm not trying to be smart or anything. Just trying to be accurate and sometimes our hands are tied with the way the rules are written and what the english language means (such as NO means NO).

It's kind of like when UKC first published their rule allowing us to release treed dogs instead of them being leash locked. The rule SAYS a dog has to be struck in. That's not how UKC meant it and they were quick with a ruling stating that just having a dog competing for strike was enough to release them. UNTIL they made that ruling the correct thing was that a dog had to be struck in. Now you don't have to do that.

It may be the same thing here. I doubt very seriously they meant for a dog to be able to leave a tree and not get minused for it when they wrote that rule, but it is written that way and it says nothing about dogs having to be handled. Therefore, until they have an official ruling otherwise those points are deleted as soon as you see the dogs on a previously scored tree. Just like they are at the end of the hunt, or on a dog that is shut out etc.

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