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-- Should silent dogs be scratched? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=456734)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by deschmidt27
[B]Harley,

In baseball would you recommend skipping 2nd and 3rd base and running straight to home? After all, crossing home plate is all that matters...


you can compare it to any sport u want and it still wont be logical. silent dogs dont skip any steps. they hunt just like any other hound except they dont bark. they still find a track,they still run the track,they still tree the coon, they still throw a locate and they settle down into a tree bark. they dont just run around and check trees.

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Originally posted by john Duemmer
Id like to see the hunts open to anything a guy wants to pay his entry on. either they will fill up the score card or they wont, and the dog with the most coon treed at the end of the night wins.

I was going to the hunts back when a man could hunt a grade dog and they were overall better dogs because noone is hunting a grade idiot to just try and put a title on it.

I have also seen a couple dogs thru the years that started out as open trailers as young dogs and ended up as silent dogs because they got smart.

Its not like most hunts are drawing large numbers of dogs, Why not come one come all and let the chips fall where they may.

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RHK - since they aren't opening on track, you have no way of knowing whether they're just running around checking trees... probably another reason for the rule.

In fact I watched a young dog just a few weeks ago, who has had way too many coons turned out in front of it, and that's exactly what they were doing... just running around checking trees!

I think the analogy is pretty darn close... if all you saw was the man cross home plate, you can only assume they rounded the other bases.

David Schmidt

good one rhk. tree checkers. They can only smell them on the trees when their head angles to the ground their brain slides forward and stops the flow of scent from entering the nasal passages.

UKC cur coon hunts have strike points just like the hounds.
let them all hunt together and you will see a ton of guys start crossing dogs more.

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I'm fine with hunting all coon dogs together in a "coon dog" competition.

But... for those of us that enjoy watching AND hearing the entire "football" game, we will not only not make the out-crosses you speak of, we will also continue to cull the silent hounds.

And I have no problem continuing to take my chances with the silent dogs, in the hunts. I've beaten them before with my open hounds, and will do so in the future, even without scratching them. As everyone is right, like babbling, it's seemingly a difficult thing to prove and scratch for.

David Schmidt

WAY I SEE IT IF THE DOG BEATS YOU TREEING CO0NS THEN THERE NOT NOTHEN MORE TO SAY THEN YOU GOT BEAT. IT DONT MATTER IS THEY DONT SAY MUCH ON GROUND OR OPEN ON TRACK IF THEY TREE COONS THEY TREE COONS

like i said before, if you get beat, take your beating. if you win smile. I was told along time ago to take my minus and the plus with come. just part of it. walker babble, blues straddle trail, plotts are mean, redbones are lazy, black and tans slow to start, english crazy, curs are silent. my goodness why the heck do we even hunt. and all are slick treeing fools. throw em all in and let them hunt.

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Home of :
Amazing Grace
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thinking of putting in a little yorki blood. lol

If there is a rule you have to enforce it or all the other rules are worthless and subject to interpertation. I think what you have to do is define a "silent dog". In my mind he doesn't open up on track period, just sits down treed. If that is the case you have to scratch him as per the rule.
If the dog opens up on track enough to identify him and can be struck, you leave him in the hunt.
Personally I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of a silent hound, the hounds opening up on track is as much of the hunt for me as them coming treed, it is why I hunt hounds.
Different strokes for different folks, but the hound standard says open on track. IMHO the reason we have slick tree/hot nosed idiots is too many have tried to breed for a competition dog rather than a coon dawg. I own and old grade dog that will put the meat up a tree dang near every time he hits the ground, at 7 or 8 he's too slow for competition,a little cold nosed, will work an old feed track out but he'll have the meat better than 90% of the time, he dang sure is a coon dog, very open on trail, you know what the dog is doing without having to have a garmin stuck up your nose. If he was younger I'd single register him. If your going to hunt UKC hunts, then hunt a dog to their standard if not hunt them in hunts where you can hunt any dog. As far as I'm concerned when you lay you money down and enter your accepting all the rules as they stand today, not your personal interpertation of them.

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Originally posted by BlueMoonJake
If there is a rule you have to enforce it or all the other rules are worthless and subject to interpertation. I think what you have to do is define a "silent dog". In my mind he doesn't open up on track period, just sits down treed. If that is the case you have to scratch him as per the rule.
If the dog opens up on track enough to identify him and can be struck, you leave him in the hunt.
Personally I wouldn't get much enjoyment out of a silent hound, the hounds opening up on track is as much of the hunt for me as them coming treed, it is why I hunt hounds.
Different strokes for different folks, but the hound standard says open on track. IMHO the reason we have slick tree/hot nosed idiots is too many have tried to breed for a competition dog rather than a coon dawg. I own and old grade dog that will put the meat up a tree dang near every time he hits the ground, at 7 or 8 he's too slow for competition,a little cold nosed, will work an old feed track out but he'll have the meat better than 90% of the time, he dang sure is a coon dog, very open on trail, you know what the dog is doing without having to have a garmin stuck up your nose. If he was younger I'd single register him. If your going to hunt UKC hunts, then hunt a dog to their standard if not hunt them in hunts where you can hunt any dog. As far as I'm concerned when you lay you money down and enter your accepting all the rules as they stand today, not your personal interpertation of them.

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all you guys that hate silent dogs can ship them too my house ,ill take as many as i can get

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One of my better hunts

Was at Marshall mo world qualifer My Ace dog opened around a pond alot didnt hear a peep out of him tehn couple minutes latter probaly 350 yards came treed.So he did open on track but stoped opening when it counted got treed had the meat.

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Originally posted by thedirtyrat1
Agree. But have you ever seen so many differences in opinions?

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808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

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One other thing we haven't talked about is the fact that a dog shouldn't be sratched for being silent on one track. I don't think I have ever owned a dog that hasn't just fell treed at one time or another. So to see if it is truley silent you would have to scratch it at the end of the hunt not the first cast.

__________________
UNITED WE STAND DIVIDED WE FALL
Grady Jarvis
808 N. Main St.
Tonkawa Okla. 74653
580-628-0507
CH 'PR' Grady's Dark Woods Waylon -Bluetic

NITECH 'PR' Grady's Insane Tinker Bell (Tink) - Treeing walker --Okla. State Hunt open redg. winner

'PR' Grady's Barley - Treeing Walker

I kinda like how you put that okie. Im agreeing with you its mainly a personal preference issue and has alot to do with weather you comp hunt vs. pleasure hunt. Like I said earlier weather a dog opens on track or doesn't bark once till he trees the only thing that matters when you get right down to it is if there is or isnt a coon above him. Ive only hunted with one silent dog and ive seen him tree many, almost like he makes them at times! However it is nice to hunt behind a med. mouth track dog but regardless in my opinion track noise doesnt mean he is or isnt a COONDOG its what at the end of that track when his head is throwed back that counts!

who cares if a dog is silent, he does have to be faster than yours to win,dont he have to tree first cuz he shouldve struck last , I think ukc needs to take this rule out ,is this not a coon treeing sport ,not a run a track sport, if you want to hear them open on track get you some fox dogs, well look at it this way , babblers get minused and silent dogs get scratched,

Most people don't the the differance in a corn patch dog and a coon dog,if thay did there would'nt be no angry here on this subject.

If they don't have to open at all, and speed and treeing is all people are interested in, it looks like the future world champion will be half grey hound/ quarter cur and quarter hound mix. If people are looking for that kind of dog they ought to breed some. I think Okie's post has a lot of merit, we're not in a coon rich enviroment by any means, if your going to shine many coons here you need a dog that will work a old track out, low population density, still some big tracts, it's much easier to hunt if you have a dog that opens some so you can tighten up. Also we don't run a garmin, just the old beep/beep's. Also a seems like there is big difference in pleasure hunters vs. comp hunters. It's all about personal preference, I like to hear a dog work, not excessive babbling but jus a medium open, I can see were a quieter dog might be advantageous in a comp hunt, if he is and honest/accurate dog and you have confidence in him. I have had the occasion to hunt with dogs that you never hear a peep out of until another dog has opened and never hear them tree their own coon, but will always be there on the tree with the one who treed first, and their owners think they are the real deal.lol

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Originally posted by Okie Dawg
One other thing we haven't talked about is the fact that a dog shouldn't be sratched for being silent on one track. I don't think I have ever owned a dog that hasn't just fell treed at one time or another. So to see if it is truley silent you would have to scratch it at the end of the hunt not the first cast.

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Originally posted by thedirtyrat1
Doesn't the rule say continuously silent on track? Or does it say consistantly silent on track?

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That is the problem I have with a silent dog is most slick handlers pitch a 2nd or 3rd strike when first dog opens!!!!!

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Originally posted by Frank M
The biggest part of this rule everyone seems to be forgetting........consistently silent!!!! Prove a dog hasn't opened 1 time off the tree, it's not easy and if you have a babbler in the bunch forget it.


To the guy that had a dog 98% silent and didn't hunt it in the hunts well that's fine but the Rules allow you to hunt that dog in the hunts!!!!


Give me a silent dog that has the meat everytime it trees and Im good!!!


I have to agree with the person that said if you can beat a dog taking 3rd or 4th strike every drop......you might want to change what's on the end of your leash!

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
And... once again, if you only care about having "advantages" in the hunt, then breed a babbling at the start, turning over to a silent the rest of the way, light-broke gator, that will always be the first one to the tree and ensure he's the only one there when you come to score it!

That's the whole point I've been trying to make, but apparently being missed. We should breed and raise coonhounds, and then compete to see who has the best one. We shouldn't be breeding for the best competition dog that you can't enjoy the other five nights of the year!

If you look at any sport, you will find folks that love the sport FIRST, and like to compete. Kids play baseball and basketball because they love the game, not because they only like to compete, or because they only like hitting the ball or making a basket. If they only cared about that, they would just spend their time at a batting cage or at the free throw line.

In my opinion... those of you who only care about treeing coon and winning hunts, are the very reason we have slick treeing idiots, who babble. Because you bred for competition and not the entire essence of coon hunting!

Just one man's opinion...

David Schmidt

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Originally posted by gfults
Peoople who only care bout treeing coon and winning hunts are responsible for slick treeing idiots??. Those two contradict one another to extreme!!! If we wana tree a lot of cooon and win hunts, what sense would it make to have slick treeing idiots???

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
Perhaps you should try reading the whole thread, so that you can better understand a single post in it. The point being made, was that if you only care about the tree, and not how you got there, and if you only care about winning hunts... because it's those people who are breeding purely for competition and not the sport that we have slick treeing idiots and babblers.

One I was talking about just caring about making trees, and not worried about opening on track, not simply the aspect of treeing coons. And two, if you think you can't win hunts with a slick treeing idiot, you ought to try hunting with several of these GrNtChs being campaigned in the magazine... because I would beg to differ! Leaves offer a lot of forgiveness...

People in this thread seem to think that all these silent track dogs are silent, because they aren't opening on the track, and they're neglecting the fact that many of these silent dogs are silent because they aren't running any track! I've seen more and more dogs just tearing through the woods checking trees... which is a huge fault, and all the more reason to scratch them and not award them for the bad behaviour, simply because they can make a few split trees.

David Schmidt

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