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-- Dear Judge . . . (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=439879)

Have other people been told that,, I mean have they seen their dog not put up and told it was cause he was too young YET.

What does that mean?

Can a Judge explain that to us please?

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

quote:

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Originally posted by KnD
Have other people been told that,, I mean have they seen their dog not put up and told it was cause he was too young YET.

What does that mean?

Can a Judge explain that to us please?

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

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__________________
Bekki Pina
Kaije Kennels

Judges are supposed to select the best dog on that day. However, there is nothing to be said how they should interpret that statement, which makes it awkward for judges at times.

A good friend of mine judged Sweepstakes (AKC) and put up a 6-9mo puppy for Best in Sweeps. Several years later, every time she saw that puppy (as an adult), she'd swear and ask why on earth she put that dog up. The typey, substantial, big moving puppy with a deep scissors bite was the best dog on THAT day... but it matured into an over done monster with a slightly undershot bite.

There are breeds, particularly the larger ones and working/herding breeds, where it is inappropriate for a puppy or young adult to have the same level of maturity and "polish" as a mature adult. Remember the "it" girl from high school? You know, the one that was well developed and gorgeous? There's a reason she didn't go to the 20 year reunion -- it's because she is hideous now. Or if she did go, it's because her face is plastic.

Adult level maturity in a youngster (for SOME breeds) is not desirable, IMO. The same can be said for an adult that looks puppyish.

Unfortunately, judges are not given specific direction as to taking the age of the dog into account. That, of course, is how judges get blamed. He/she picks the mature looking puppy that is bound to fall apart, and people complain. He/she selects the adult dog that doesn't look quite as good as the overly mature puppy, and people still complain.

It's a no-win situation.

But personally, I'd rather see the puppy dumped. If it is that good, it'll win as an adult. Or heck, just withhold ribbons!

Makes sense,,, but should a judge judge on "potetntial".. or judge what they see "today".. in the ring.

Should the best dog win,, no matter what?

Interesting topic.

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

They didn't put us up in those cases. I'm ok with it. It's great that puppies do well, but I prefer to look at older, more mature dogs as placing value of good breed specimans.

Actually, I'm not unappreciative, but one of mine was once put up to a pretty high honor at the worst time in his life... He was young and out of proportion. I do think he was potential judged...he beat two other dogs that IMO were clearly better than he was that day in the ring...and I own all of them...

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Bekki Pina
Kaije Kennels

We've all seen that puppy that is just SPECTACULAR in the puppy class (massive bone, endless coat, etc), but can't walk 3 steps in a straight line at a year. They burn too bright and too fast and then they lose it all. I'm not talking about that dog. I'm talking about the young dog that the only way the judge knows if it turned 6 months old that day or will turn a year old tomorrow is if they take the trouble to ask the handler. I'm talking about the young dog that isn't obviously barely old enough to be in the ring. I'm talking about the young dog that the judge is a heartbeat from putting up, until they pause to ask 'how old is your dog?'.

If a young dog is sound and superior, give it a fair chance.

quote:

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Originally posted by KnD
Have other people been told that,, I mean have they seen their dog not put up and told it was cause he was too young YET.

What does that mean?

Can a Judge explain that to us please?

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

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__________________
It ain't the bark, it ain't the growl, it's the bite that hurts!

but

9 year girls are not allowed to enter Miss America.

Young dogs are young,,, yes...

But why charge a dog full price then tell them even though they are better ,,, they are too young to be awarded the win.

If this truly is the case,,, UKC Judges and UKC agree,,, do not let dogs show until they are 1 year old.

Taking money and THEN telling dogs they are too young to accurately access seems crooked to me.

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels..com

or perhaps set the puppies aside, and do best of for the puppies in the 6-9 months age range.

the breed club i was in set the pups alone, and had a best of puppy.

puppies

I've given majors out to puppies in another venue, and put up puppies breed over Grand CH in UKC. Puppies gain from being shown, getting out. Its the dog, not their age. They may look very different at a different age. Some puppies finish as young puppies then fall apart. The opposite is also true.

__________________
Bev Felten
UKC conformation judge
#6988

Re: puppies

quote:

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Originally posted by BFelten
I've given majors out to puppies in another venue, and put up puppies breed over Grand CH in UKC. Puppies gain from being shown, getting out. Its the dog, not their age. They may look very different at a different age. Some puppies finish as young puppies then fall apart. The opposite is also true.

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Re: Re: puppies

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Originally posted by DobeDad
To judge a pup/young dog as it appears in front of THAT day is one thing. To judge and place a pup/young dog because of how you think it MIGHT develop is another. And totally wrong.

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Thank you, Ms Felten, both for your time, effort and experience, and for your willingness to consider each dog as it appears at the moment that it is presented for your consideration, rather than what it may once have been or may become. No judge should ever be faulted for doing so.

Another member of these forums posted at one point that they didn't understand what their judge was looking for. One day the judge puts the dog up, the next time that judge sees that dog, it loses. Back and forth, over and over. Then at last they understood. The judge was approaching each show with a clean slate, as if they were seeing each dog in front of them for the very first time, judging ONLY what they saw at that moment, on that day. This is how it should be.

Young dogs benefit from being shown, win or lose. It is part of the socialization process, and nothing can truly copy the energy and controlled chaos of the actual show ring. Owners of young dogs pay their entry, burn their gas driving to the show, perhaps pay for a hotel or take time off from work, just like the owners of older dogs. If their dog is worthy of consideration, please Judges give them that opportunity. Don't automatically write them off just because they are young.

If a puppy/young dog keeps drawing your eye back, because it is the total package in spite of its age, because it IS the best thing in the ring at that moment on that day, give it the credit that it deserves.
If a more mature dog falls short on that day, don't automatically reward it just because it has 'put in its time' and because of what that superior young dog might or might not look like tomorrow or in 6 months.
Even if a young dog titles quickly, that title is only a small part of the whole. It will quickly become meaningless if that dog falls apart at maturity, and no responsible breeder will breed to it or accept a pup out of it.

Just like we mere humans, our dogs have good days and bad days. Some days we win and some days we lose. It can be discourageing to a new owner to have a beautiful young dog and be told that they are just too young to be properly recognized.
I have been truly fortunate regarding my young bitch. She was exceptional at 9 weeks and she continues to be so. She has only improved since last fall and that first disappointment of being told that she deserved the win but the judges just weren't comfortable putting up such a young puppy. She will continue to show, in multiple venues. If she proves to be a credit to her breeder's 30 year program, she will earn her place in the breed and the gene pool based upon her own merits.

Live like a dog...with unconditional joy at each new discovery.

Dear Judge

I don't know if I ever read this entire thread, but recently posited this statement/question on the Facebook "UKC judge hot spot" group:

Curious--to exhibitors--what Breed-specific aspects of your Breed Standard do you feel judges aren't paying enough attention to (if any); what do you consider "the drag of your Breed" that judges (and breeders and exhibitors) should be more aware of?
====================================
There are quite a few very illuminating posts there, but I'll repost here my comments as they pertain to Samoyeds...

I think sometimes judges do over-reward dogs who are "up" and flashy because they interpret that as being "showy," whether or not it is proper for the specific breed's temperament and general purpose. Might go along with sometimes rewarding the dog who races around the ring the fastest? I remember Annie Rogers Clark and other long-time judges asking exhibitors to move the dog on a loose lead, at a moderate pace. You can see a lot more structural faults that way.

A fellow Samoyed exhibitor/breeder who isn't on Facebook, but wished to weigh in, said "You know my 2 main peeves: quantity of coat vs quality and overly heavy bone. Yes, the standard says"bone heavier than expected", but that doesn't mean bone that would put a Mal or Saint to shame. Judges need to ask themselves if the Sam could follow a herd or pull a sled all day w/o out overheating or breaking down." I'd like to add that our Standard mentions "moderate" several times, as well as the "upturned corners of the mouth" forming the characteristic Sammy smile, even when the mouth is closed. Many breeders and judges have commented on us losing the Sammy smile! Note also that the dog is longer than it is tall, and ears are slightly rounded at the tips, not too big, and not carried low on the side of the head. Pay attention to size. Movement should be effortless. After all, if dropped in the middle of the Arctic, which dog would get you home?

Sams should tend to converge front and rear as speed increases, and movement should look effortless; not labored. And one of MY pet peeves is placements based solely or mostly on side gait, when the front or rear could be flipping in or out, egg-beating, severely toeing in or out, crossing over, or other structural/movement faults that are inefficient and would be tiring to the dog if s/he was actually working all day. Nice, smooth, level toplines, no bouncy up-and-dog movement, with good reach and drive, but not TRAD (Tremendous Reach And Drive) with the wasted front and rear feet lifted high off the ground. Forward propulsion is generated when the foot pushes off the ground; anything "in the air" is wasted motion.

From the UKC Samoyed Breed Standard:
Height and Weight

Desirable height for a mature male Samoyed is 21 to 23½ inches. Desirable height for a mature female Samoyed is 19 to 21 inches. Deviation from the desirable heights should be penalized to the extent of the deviation.

The bone of a Samoyed is heavier than might be expected in a dog of this size but is not so massive as to reduce the dog's speed or agility. The Samoyed should never be so heavy as to appear clumsy or so light as to appear racy. Weight should be in proportion to height and in accordance with these principles.

Gait

When trotting, the gait is effortless, smooth, powerful and well coordinated, showing good reach in front and drive behind. The backline remains level with only a slight flexing to indicate suppleness. Viewed from any position, legs turn neither in nor out, nor do feet cross or interfere with each other. As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward centerline of balance.

Poor movement should be penalized to the degree to which it reduces the Samoyed's ability to perform the tasks it was bred to do.

Faults: Choppy or stilted gait; pacing.

The AKC and UKC Standards are very, very similar (I am glad the UKC Standard removed "foxy" from an earlier description!), but I particularly like how the AKC Standard starts out:

General Conformation
(a) General Appearance - The Samoyed, being essentially a working dog, should present a picture of beauty, alertness and strength, with agility, dignity and grace. As his work lies in cold climates, his coat should be heavy and weather-resistant, well groomed, and of good quality rather then quantity. The male carries more of a "ruff" than the female. He should not be long in the back as a weak back would make him practically useless for his legitimate work, but at the same time, a close-coupled body would also place him at a great disadvantage as a draft dog. Breeders should aim for the happy medium, a body not long but muscular, allowing liberty, with a deep chest and well-sprung ribs, strong neck, straight front and especially strong loins. Males should be masculine in appearance and deportment without unwarranted aggressiveness; bitches feminine without weakness of structure or apparent softness of temperament. Bitches may be slightly longer in back than males. They should both give the appearance of being capable of great endurance but be free from coarseness. Because of the depth of chest required, the legs should be moderately long. A very short-legged dog is to be deprecated. Hindquarters should be particularly well developed, stifles well bent and any suggestion of unsound stifles or cowhocks severely penalized. General appearance should include movement and general conformation, indicating balance and good substance.

(b) Substance - Substance is that sufficiency of bone and muscle which rounds out a balance with the frame. The bone is heavier than would be expected in a dog of this size but not so massive as to prevent the speed and agility most desirable in a Samoyed. In all builds, bone should be in proportion to body size. The Samoyed should never be so heavy as to appear clumsy nor so light as to appear racy. The weight should be in proportion to the height.

(c) Height - Males--21 to 23½ inches; females--19 to 21 inches at the withers. An oversized or undersized Samoyed is to be penalized according to the extent of the deviation.

I appreciate it when judges review their Standards before judging. I remember years ago Anna Burke Harris did this, and after she judged, I asked her if she was looking up biscuit (because I was showing a heavily biscuit-marked Samoyed bitch at the time); she replied that no, she was fine with the biscuit, but she was checking on movement. And she did put up the best mover that day. I appreciate that those responding to this thread are highlighting what they consider the hallmark of their specific Breed--what if, missing or lacking, should never be rewarded by the judges!

I think there are very few breeds where size alone should be the deciding factor, and bigger certainly isn't necessarily better.

Most Samoyed fanciers who have seen the Samoyed pictured in the UKC Breed Standard think it is overdone and coarse. Another Samoyed fancier who doesn't think she's been approved to join this group yet, but who says she can view comments but not post replies, said: "I can view the discussion but can't post yet. So my input is: way too much emphasis on cute and fluffy. That's dangerous for a hardcore working breed like a sam. I know it's hard to get past since sammies ARE gorgeous and adorable ... but especially when they're correct. Arctic eyes, UPTURNING lips making a smile, that's functional keeps them alive in that environment. Big, thin ears would freeze.. soft droopy coats would let a dog freeze and die... there's nothing about this breed for looks, maybe pigment, that's icing on the cake. The front paw should reach the nose on side gait. That's the dog taking less steps to get somewhere saving energy. A dog prancing or pitter pattering takes twice as many steps to keep up."

To clarify, when she says "the front paw should reach the nose on side gait," she meant if a vertical line is drawn from the tip of the nose to the ground, the dog's front leg should reach that far forward, not high in the air, but close to the ground, hitting the ground.

__________________
Lori C-C
SFX Samoyeds

I went back and reread and realized I did post a little thing here and there, but didnt see this comment from me.......

The Sheltie is not just a head breed. The dog needs to have proper angulation and length to move properly (not prance!) and balanced. A pretty head (and eye) should not excuse a short straight shoulder, short neck, or short tail. Structure is needed in order to work, looks are not and the Sheltie is a working herding breed not in the companion group.

Oh and, less coat allows everyone to see the structure - sometimes too much coat is too much coat

Dear Judge,

In my breed, which is Whippets:

Having a judge that does not allow bait, then wonders why our hounds won’t give ears??? They’re hounds and luv their food, not to mention, that’s the way they’re trained. Or when a judge drops something like keys on the floor directly in front of a Whippet to get ears, the dog looks down, and the ears go straight up – it’s not pretty! There is nothing in the standard requiring the dog to ‘give ears’. The only thing they can’t be is erect, standing straight up.

Second, Whippets are a table/ramp breed, please use it. Don’t expect a Whippet to be friendly when you walk up and they’re on the floor and you lean over them for examination. It can be very daunting especially if it’s a young (not seasoned) dog for a judge to lean over top of them. It’s different if you come up on a second ‘go over’ and just touch a head or back, but please use the table or ramp for the main exam.

Third, side gate isn’t everything. Dogs should move true on the down and back first, then hold their shape somewhat on the go around. From the side, watch for balance in the front and rear angles. And please watch the rears in our breed. I’ve noticed lately a lot of close movers and am becoming concerned that we have a problem creeping up on us (most of which I’ve seen lately at AKC shows).

And to all exhibitors, first and foremost, you are the one that is submitting your dog for the judges’ opinion. I believe it’s your responsibility to the breed you chose to be presenting the best you can to the judge. As I’ve heard many times, the judge can only judge what’s put in front of them. But on the other side of the dog, as a judge, you must withhold ribbons from exhibits that for one reason or another don’t make the standard.

And judges, truly, thank you for the long, hard days you put in judging our dogs. I, for one, would never have the patience for what you endure!!!

Beth Borgman
DunesView Whippets

Standard Poodle "Gait" in the show ring

Dear Judge,

I am seeing a lot of photos of on the web and other sites images of Standard Poodles in the ring "pacing" and not "Gaiting".
I was always taught that Standard Poodles Gait in the ring, not Pace.
Even some pictures from PCA 2014 show adults pacing in the ring.
I was always taught to Gait my Standards, is Pacing allowed now?



Karri L. Whitefish Bodoh
Moondance Standard Poodles

Not at all!

Pacing is a lazy dog gait, and resides mostly in the brain. But a good judge will look carefully if a dog paces to see if it's laziness or structural. If there's foot interference there's only two ways to deal with it. Either the dog pitches out to the side or paces. And you can see it during the side gait to see if there's a cross-over between feet on the same side ... which is hidden during a pace, making pacing all the more troublesome.

Being a square breed, we do have to watch carefully for foot interference. What should happen is that the front foot should come up and level with the ground to allow for the rear foot on the same side to fall in its place.

When pacing is lazy movement, the dog will easily alternate between pacing and gaiting, and the pace can be broken by a quick speed change or a side push at the start.

So, when a Poodle of any variety or color combination paces, it's an absolute "no-go" in my ring. It would have to be pretty spectacular otherwise to get past a properly moving Poodle. Structure is hard to get and keep, so it's a critical item to look for in the breed.

As for pacers winning at PCA, who was handling before which judge? ... ;-)

__________________
David Arthur
Aircastle Standard Poodles
http://aircastlekennels.com

Re: Dear Judge

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Originally posted by bumpushound
Dear Judges,
If at anytime under UKC's jurisdiction you witness handler misconduct or dog attack/bites, please have the courage to DQ and /or officially report such to the sponsoring club and UKC at once.

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Kathleen Chance

Re: Re: Dear Judge

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Originally posted by Kathleen Chance
Also, please judges, if in the ring a dog backs away, issues a low or even loud growl, bares it's teeth at you, please dismiss it from ring. (note this does not apply to a dog just being squirrelly on the table) Do not tell the exhibitor to get the dog under control and then put your hand near the mouth. Do not automatically DQ the dog, it may be it's first show, it may have been traumatized, you may have handled a dog in heat prior to this dog etc. But do not get bit and have to DQ the dog. At shows I have been at, this has happened. Don't think this just happens with big dogs, a small TFT or Yorkie has teeth and can break skin.

Also, Please oh Please watch how you approach a dog. do not extend you hand over the head first. Approach from the side or if from the front let the dog smell you first.

Due diligence is the rule, but common sense should be the guiding factor.

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Beth Borgman
DunesView Whippets
Knox, IN

pacing in the ring

Quite a few dogs in my breed, Chinooks, will exhibit a pace while being gaited. Chinooks are sled dogs, and the pace is an easy gait for working teamed dogs to use while in harness. Chinooks are not square, so there is no interference in movement. I have observed pacing frequently while driving my dogs. And the dogs can go from a trot to a pace and back without missing a beat. HOWEVER, the Chinook must be shown at a correct diagonal trot. I have had dogs of my own who would pace in conformation. The problem I see, for the most part, is that a pacing dog's handler is either not aware of what a pace is, and/or cannot tell the dog is pacing rather than trotting. I normally do mention it to owner/handlers in my breed if I see their dogs are pacing, and offer to help them see the pacing gait and how to easily correct it. So, "dear judge", if you see a Chinook pacing in your conformation ring, please tell the dog's handler and ask for the dog to be re-gaited. If you could, offer a couple of suggestions to the handler who may not really know what to do. The handler can take off quicker, or simply lightly bump the dog to throw the gait back into the trot, or a pull of the leash to the right at the beginning of the movement. There are a lot of simple movements that will quickly correct the gait. Chinook handlers would appreciate your observation and assistance in helping them exhibit their dogs correctly. I don't know if other sled dog breeds also easily pace in the ring, but perhaps this applies to them as well.

Diana Fowler
Southwind Chinooks

Dear judge

When judging juniors please remember they are still learning. Your comments and attitudes could forever change their approach to handling and dog shows. This does not mean go easy but please be fair and considerate.

Please do not reward the flashy smiles and flapping arms in baiting. While showmanship is the name of the game the handler should be showing their dog, not showing off.

Please ask questions and keep in mind that even if the youth do not answer the question the way you would have if the correct information is there it should be rewarded .

Please remember that once out of the sub divisions, a best junior award forces the handler to move up. Giving the cute little kid with the naughty puppy Best because they tried hard does not do them any real good. I know too many very young juniors now in the Open clas without the benefit from the learning experiences being in novice class provides. If they are truly the best , so be it. But not for effort and not for cute.

Judging juniors bright and early in the morning when the breed classes are waiting is not always looked forward too I'm sure. These handlers are the future of our sport. Please educate and encourage them.

Sincerely mom of juniors who are now the 4th generation of handlers in our family.

Dear judge

Please be willing to check the standard; for any breed. Please do not fear we will think you don't know what you are doing. I would much rather wait while you pause to check the standard than hear later the dog you put up had a fault. I will wait while you check the standard on an uncommon breed. I will wait while you check the standard on a breed you "should know". I will wait while you measure a dog. I will wait while you take a second look after checking the standard. I will wait while you take the time to ensure you are evaluating and placing dogs according to the standard.
If you check the standard and follow it in placing your classes I will show to you again even if you don't put my dog up.

checking the standard

I absolutely agree!! I really appreciate any judge taking some time to look at my breed's standard. How can anyone remember every detail of every standard of every dog eligible for conformation in UKC? I know many judges are very familiar with quite a few of our more commonly shown breeds, and really don't need to check every standard. But sometimes - even with more commonly seen dogs but not all that familiar- judging errors in conformation details are made simply because apparently minor points are forgotten or are not noticed, but those minor points may not be so minor to the breed. I also appreciate judges reviewing less familiar standards of breeds who will be showing to them in an upcoming show. I think most clubs do notify judges of what breeds are pre-entered.
So judges, please do take the time to check the standard. No one in UKC would ever think less of you. In fact, I think MORE of you for valuing the breed in front of you enough to make sure you are judging that breed according to the written standard.
Thank goodness for UKC- we aren't in a hurry, there aren't several hundred dogs for a judge to zip through, judges can spend more than a few seconds evaluating a dog, and there is time for quick standard references when needed.

Diana Fowler
Southwind Chinooks

Dear Judge, when judging Standard Poodles please remember their proper movement. "They are to move with their head and tail UP", known as proper carriage. They are not suppose to move with their head and tail down like a Golden Retriever, they are not to move lounging like a German Shepard. Their carriage is what gives them breed type and differentiates them from other Gun Group breeds.


Kathy Esio-King
Jacknic Kennel