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COFFEE SHOP PHILOSOPHY

THIS IS THE FIRST THREAD I HAVE EVER FOUND INTERESTING ENOUGH TO READ START TO FINISH. GREAT WORK AND CONVERSATION GUYS. LOOK FORWARD TO MORE.

The key to improving the hunts, is like everything else... being involved!

Trust me, I've complained as much as anyone, but if everyone who cares, chooses to stop going, you're left with those that don't care! There's those that behave and those that don't behave, and if those that act as sportsman give up, those that don't behave is all that will be left and we're doomed!

So the key is doing what you can to make things better, not simply avoiding the circumstances that you dislike. I know it's easier said than done, and requires all of us to take that step, but that's the only way it will work.

It's just like your local club... a couple things go the way others don't like and they stop showing up. Then all the work is left to a few, and it's more work than they alone can handle. Then what happens... they do the best they can without the support of others, and it misses everyone's expectations. Then everyone on the sidelines say, "see I told you so!" And it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, doomed for failure.

Handing out more places at a hunt, is a similar argument. Only a few places are awarded, so less people show up. Since less people show up, it's easier to win, and more NtCH and GrNtCh are made than should be. But if you hand out more wins, without first increasing the numbers, it will be even easier to win, and more people will argue that it's worthless and stop showing up. And so... we spiral down the toilet!

So what do we do... leave the program as it is, start showing up, and make a difference. Go ahead and voice your concerns and opinions, but do something about it!

JMHO

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Ok, I know the post above is a bit preachy, but that's what I have to tell myself to deal with my frustrations.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

here's another idea to enhance my above change to one non cast winning dog per hunt (plus points) non cast winner points based on total cast entered a example would go like this 1 cast 5 points then one more point per cast up to a max of 10 ten points this would take a guy a while to make ntch and he still would need that 1st place remember no non cast winner to place over cast winner and only 1 non cast winner per hunt such a simple change could change the hunts forever "what we doing now isn't working"

I personally think the hunt numbers are down mainly because of a poor economy, high gas prices and alot less hunters around. At least in my area I believe that to be the case.

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if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I guess I'm confused on what the goal is? Are there not a lot of people attending the hunts because of the types of people that do, or because it's so hard to get a win? And what is the goal of a win, other than putting a title on your dog?

Because achieving one, will defeat the other...

As it is right now, there aren't a whole of dogs at a hunt, so winning your cast assures you a top spot and a high likelihood of a first place. Hence, titling your dog will be easier. If there are more dogs, it will be harder to title your dog, even if you add non-cast winners to the top 10. Which means if the goal is getting more people to a hunt, and that's through easier means of placing, then those goals are contradictory.

And if titling your dog is not the goal, then what does anyone care about the yellow slip or a trophy? You'll know how well your dog did or didn't do, regardless of how you placed. Giving wins to dogs that couldn't beat who they drew, just doesn't make sense to me. Especially if you can't finish higher than a cast winner. My goal in going to a hunt, other than a good time, is attempting to win the hunt. If I don't think I have a chance at that, then the rest doesn't make sense. And if I can't beat the dogs I draw, then I obviously I can't win the hunt.

It would be like complaining about drawing Kentucky, Duke or North Carolina in the first round of the NCAA tournament. Just because there were a bunch of lessor teams that beat lessor opponents, doesn't matter. Eventually you'll have to play one of those top teams! Unless your goal was second place, what does it matter???

If you want more people at a hunt, and maintain the value of a "win" then you need to attract people by some other means. And if the issue, is the bad apples, then find a way to better address them and their dogs through more strict enforcement of the rules. Stop putting up with their nonsense! Eventually that will draw sportsman back to the hunts, and dilute the ones that aren't.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

I agree with the financial impact, there's no denying that! And addressing wins, or bad apples won't effect whether or not someone can afford gas and entry fees.

BUT... we also have issues with good guides, judges, etc. And I have seen positive effects of refunding the entry fees of those willing to guide and judge. And that does help the financial aspect.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

I will agree there are bad apples out there no question about it but for the most part how many times do you draw that bad apple. I haven't been trying to finish a dog lately but hope to start back soon but in all the years I have competed I might draw 1 bad 1 for 10 good casts. Take the bad with the good and move on. I have found that most people that feel cheated just didn't know the rules and that falls on the hands of anyone that chooses to compete to know the rules and how to apply them. And for the record this is 1 of the best threads in a long time........ goodjob


On another note I think there are alot less competitive people than there used to be. Kids playing sports where you don't keep score everyone gets a ribbon. Life is about competition no matter what you do and competition is a great thing it leads to bigger and better things. I see participation in our local high school in the sports programs dropping to the point that they had to go to 8 man football because they had a hard time fielding a team.

Everyone needs to know how to win and how to lose. Winning is always better but can only be 1 per cast or 1 per hunt

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if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

Also......I look around and it seems the coonhunter base is aging.
And nite hunts are a young mans sport.

Me and Marv were talking last night as we rode the side-by-side to a tree, if someone would start up a ride-to-the-tree KC, we'd all be back in.

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UKC Nite Champion Stylish Harry's Trixie - 2017 World Hunt Qualified - Owners - Sizemore/Martin
PKC CH/UKC GrNtCh Stylish Kate - 9/12/08 to 9/23/2016 R.I.P - Owners Sizemore/Martin
AKC/UKC NtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jeff 5/2/2000 to 1/22/2012 R.I.P.
AKC/UKC GrNtCh Sizemore's Timber Jam Jessi 12/21/04 to 1/21/2011 R.I.P.

I've been struggling with the question of why the hunt numbers are down for about 10 years now. There are multiple reasons why, and the economy certainly has an effect on that....but then I drive by the local movie theater....and it shatters my belief that folks don't have $15.00 or $20.00 to entertain themselves for a few hours.

The best answer I can come up with is simply as coon hunters we have become "lazy" at the club level. Club membership is now a rarity when it once was very common. And it is now to the point where clubs are struggling to have enough members present to hold an event, and keep the kitchen open.

Those that enter the hunt, often the ones that complain about the lack of guides, and judges are often locals who attend nearly every event held at the club, and are often the most vocal about "what is wrong" with the club, but shy away from membership or being involved in making the club, or its events, a better place to be.

In my travels, I have certainly noticed that the clubs where they had a decent number of members, and those members were involved had a larger turnout for their events. One result of that was that folks that traveled to those events found a good turnout, good guides, good judges and had a good time and returned. I have seen this repeated time and time again.

I have also seen clubs that had a healthy membership have splits between the membership, fusses, or disagreements and have seen their events go down in flames as well. This leads me to believe that in a lot of cases, a drastic decrease in membership is the direct reason why there is a drastic decrease in the attendance of a club's events....

So, if you are suffering from low attendance at your club's events,....the first thing you should do is to have a membership drive. Get out the scorecards from the last 40 hunts and get the names and addresses of every hunter that has entered your hunts and invite them to be a member or send them a schedule of your hunts....build your membership, have a strong set of officers, get involved and work to make sure that everyone wants to participate.....

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

I am with ya on that Jim I always like it that Marv can drive ya almost to the tree and in some cases right up to it. I just wish my dog would come out to the ranger when I call her and of course load herself. lol

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if its there eventually it will look

Mark Warner

"HOME OF PREDAWN KENNELS"

http://www.tekonshathunder.homestead.com

Mark - I completely agree with you, on the question over whether folks are or are not getting cheated. I haven't been to nearly as many hunts this year as I would like, but there was only one cast that was frustrating, and that was at Autumn Oaks. And, I wasn't cheated, I just drew out with a real goof ball! And yes, as a hunting judge, I too have had to give a few a lesson in the rules, a time or two, and I'm quite certain there complete lack of understanding led to them thinking I was putting the screws to them! One even told me that since I wanted to hunt the last five minutes of the hunt, instead of running the clock out (since they were winning) was because I just didn't want them to win! And I said, "yes, I still have five minutes to beat you, and I'm going to take it!?!"

Joe - I agree that a large part of the drop in entries, is due to a reduction in involvement, in general. The club I belonged to as a kid, had club or "buddy" hunts and that kept the young and old alike, involved. And those same guys and gals became the guides and judges for the hunts we had, and that was back when NTCH casts required non-hunting judges! We had work details, gun shoots, and trade days. And in total, it created an atmosphere of involvement.

But as I said earlier, people choose to stop pitching in, and things head South, quickly. And then those that stopped helping, were the first to complain and then make further excuses to not do anything.

So... I agree with doing membership drives, but you must also provide a reason to be a member. You can't ask people to be members, just so that they get the pleasure to work in the kitchen at the next hunt! You must plan some activities to make membership enjoyable. And then, people will want to pitch in.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

quote:

---

Originally posted by JiM
Also......I look around and it seems the coonhunter base is aging.
And nite hunts are a young mans sport.

Me and Marv were talking last night as we rode the side-by-side to a tree, if someone would start up a ride-to-the-tree KC, we'd all be back in.

---

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Ralph Williams

That's a good point, Ralph! Many talk about being "hard" hunters but then they need to take a golf cart, to go get ice cream!

Of course, they may argue that they're not hunting, and it's a more relaxing way to get around (I too have done it) but it's not so relaxing when there's a million of them!

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Dave, how many reasons should a person need to become involved in an organization that is going to host the events that they are complaining about don't have enough entries?

Sounds to me that the only reason they need is to be involved in the organization that is holding the events that they don't feel satisfied by.....

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

I don't know, Joe... Back in Indiana there were several clubs near me, and I always volunteered to judge, and guide if it was close enough to do so. You and I also volunteered to help with YEP events. So I and we, did what we could to help those events and none of that required us becoming a member. Now, I suppose I could have paid membership fees, as well, to help them financially, but I like many would ask what will I get out for my membership dues???

If the answer is only, "you'll get to participate in our hunts", then I would say no thank you, I already get that and I'm already helping you put them on by guiding and judging. I guess I could work in the kitchen as well, but then it would be like paying for the right to work!

Now, if the answer is the comradery of a club of sportsman, with like interests, then I may say, "ok, what kind of comradery?" If the answer is, "well, we do turkey shoots, trade days, and club hunts etc., to have fun." "And we do this and that to help our youth and give back to the community and/or Mother Nature." Then I would say that sounds like a good time and a worthy cause, that I want to help support.

If clubs are simply a means to competition events, then you don't need a "club"... One man, a mailing address and a place to meet is all you need! In fact, you and I know of one such place, down there in Indiana!?!

I don't think the issue is the death of competiton events... It's the sport in general, that needs to be reinvented or at least revitalized. But it will take work, and a club who's members have a plan to not only acquire more members, but also what to do with them!

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Dave,

I am a member of several of those very clubs that you refer to. And I can speak from experience that it's the guys like you, who don't belong to a club and have no "ownership" in what goes on at the clubhouse, that are exactly who I am talking about.

I'm willing to bet that you held no loyalty to any one clubs that you attended the hunts. While your volunteer spirit was much appreciated, guiding and judging are but a portion of what it takes to put on a successful hunt. And your belief that you donated your share by guiding and judging is exactly what is killing clubs.

I believe you are wrong in your belief that all it takes is one man and a mailing address. How successful is that one man show? How did you like going to those hunts?

The question at hand is "what can we do to make our hunts more enjoyable so folks will want to come back"...and I say that it takes a team of folks.

Club membership is down across the board. Ask the Lions, Kiawanis, Elks, Moose, VFW, and the freakin PTA..... We have more important things to do than go to a club meeting to discuss club business,....for goodness sakes, Duck Dynasty is on.....

Having been the president of more than one of the local clubs, and watching them struggle to keep the doors of the clubhouse open against the rising taxes, utility bills, and other expenses it saddens me to think that we have become a society of consumers of the labor of others without regard to the future of our sport.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

yes there is a difference in a small under staffed club then a well run club but neither draw a crowd today since no one likes the idea of 1 non cast winner per hunt lets see how you like this idea all dogs entered receive 1 point towards ntch title we need a system to encourage people who spend there time and hard earned money something in exchange for them to show up ! this all or nothing isn't working is it ?

Joe - I'm pretty sure you missed my whole point! A series of successful competition events, does not a club make! And no, you are not a member of the club I was speaking of! That "club" basically has one active member who now hosts all the events at his house. And here's where my point comes in... could he hold a membership drive, contacting all the participants of his last event? Sure! But if he contacts me, I'm going to ask him what his goal is. And if his goal is to simply hold better competition events, he's not going to win me over! There just has to be more to the sport and the clubs, than that!

You yourself, have challenged the value of hunt titles, so how can you turn around and argue that, that's the some total of the value of a coon hunters club... to put on hunts? And if that's not what you are saying, then you're likely on the same page as me!

And you are totally wrong about the loyalty question... The reason I didn't rejoin my old club, or the nearby club when I got back into hunting, was because of the TV show. As soon as I started the TV show, I started getting asked to help my nearby club by filming their events, and I figured that if I was a member I would have a hard time saying no. And I didn't want to play favorites. However, you probably did notice some favoritism for my old home club, that did get much of our attention! Let's see... I've stayed in contact with many of their members on a personal level. I've sent business to several of their members. We helped them develop their YEP training program, and I volunteered at several of them. I've sent several members their way. We filmed several of their events. And yes, I always judge and guide at their events. But no, I never paid my "dues", but I was probably more loyal than many of their actual members. In hindsight that was probably due to loyalty to a club that got me started in the sport. HOWEVER, coincidentally, that particular club does host events outside of competition hunts. And because of that, it has increased it's membership and youth involvement over the past several years. And that probably made it easier for me to play favorites. And when the show was finally dead, I was going to rejoin my old club (heck I still get their newsletter!), but of course I moved to Wisconsin.

And I don't understand your point on loyalty to the clubs who hosted the events I attended... what clubs was I supposed to be loyal to, and why??? You are a member of several clubs, but certainly not a member of every club who's hunts you attend. And in the past year or so, I've attended more clubs than you. Am I supposed to be a member of all of them? And if so, how would I demonstrate my loyalty to all of them??? And if I'm not supposed to be a member of all of them, then which ones was I supposed to join? Because the answer to that question, is the one I'm seeking. Which ones differentiate themselves and therefore will be successful clubs that members want to join?

This is no different than fundraising... clubs have to raise funds, but to continue to do so successfully, they have to use those funds for something worthwhile. And when they can demonstrate that they can do that successfully in a worthwhile manner, it becomes easier to raise more funds. Same with members... gain more members, but then do something with them!

My point was never whether I was "doing my part" for these clubs, although I do feel that I've personally invested a lot in this sport, and have attempted to make a difference! My point is what do these clubs want to look like in the future? If it's just hosts of competition hunts, then I'll do my part to help them host those events. But if they want more from me, then they have to have a plan to do more. Because I am a member of some of those other clubs you mentioned. And there's only so much of me, to go around. So if a club wants more, then they need to step up and have a bigger vision than just hosting hunts. Or they will fall short of inspiring me...

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

*** Please read first post, prior to posting a reply.***

Let me see if i can state this more concisely...

I believe it takes a healthy, well supported coon hunters club to put on a truly successful competition event. BUT, I think it take way more than an interest in putting on successful competition events, to develop a healthy well supported coon hunters club. And even more so, if you want to sustain it.

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

wow

this is getting intrested, most people think we are having a hunt this week end just show up and judge or guide is all there is,we start planning a month in advance to keep things running , no we dont have many working members but we keep on going. belive me we have tried everything i can think of to get new members, if guys dont step up and join a club and get envolved, clubs are going to be a thing of the past and i think there more to it than just belonging to a club get ONE AND BE A PART OF IT , THERE IS club up keep, kitchen help ,and lots of more things to be done to keep a club going so join a club of choice and do all you can and then more . hot picking on any one, just had to vent a little

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TREEPICKING KENNELS !!

HOME OF "" GR.CH. TREEPICKING MAGIC MAN
http://wmagicwebb.tripod.com Lots of us have the right Aim in life ,but most of us run out of ammunition ROGER & DORIS WEBB

Guys,

I don't know what the answer is either. Several years ago, a local club was going to go under. A bunch of us pulled together to stop the loss of one of Michigan's oldest clubs. We had buddy and family hunts. After a night hunt many of us would pleasure hunt. I have many fond memories of those times.

Now days, simple fellowship with like individuals is not enough to entice new members. Frankly, I don't know how to answer the following question, "if I join your club what is in it for me?"

For me it started as the opportunity to keep a part of the local history alive and well, and to support a sport that I dearly love. I can't explain why, but I just love to see a bunch of trucks parked at any of our local clubs. I love cutting a couple of hounds into a river bottom while sitting comfortably on a tail gate and catching up with old friends.

My only guess is that those things just aren't important to many today. If you all find the solution, please let me know.

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Larry Atherton

Aim small miss small

Don't get me wrong Roger, not everyone can be inspired, and for those people it won't matter how much you diversify, they won't care and won't get involved. But my point is still that you need to attempt to diversify (which I agree Silver Lake has) to gain those members that just don't care about competition events. And no, judging and guiding isn't all that there is, but it's a lot more than many pony up.

But being a member is more than being a part of the Peace Corp... if you asked me to help with something, I would if I could, and it wouldn't require being a member. Being a member has got to mean wanting to belong, not just wanting to pitch in, although that's a major part of it.

And Larry, I agree it's not an easy question to answer... how do you get someone to want to be involved??? I sure don't have the answer, but I do think that's the key.

BUT perhaps the issue is budgeting... with the given state of society, the economy, etc. perhaps clubs don't have enough inspireable (if that's a word?) people to support the number of clubs we want to maintain. It would of course require some folks swallowing their pride and getting their egos out of the way, but maybe we need to consolidate for the greater good. Maybe every other county cannot support a club, and two or more clubs need to come together?!? Maybe a coonhunters club and another conservation or sportsman organization, need to regroup as one? Maybe all these various state and breed associations need to consolidate or at least work together? As individual clubs, they're barely staying alive, but as consolidated clubs, perhaps they can better support the effort... the key will be finding common ground, and applying the collective human capital to those concerted efforts.

It just doesn't make sense for a local rod and gun club to just be getting by, along with an archery club and a coon hunters club in the same county. Why can't they team up and do better than they can individually? The same with 3 or 4 coon hunters clubs within 45 minutes of each other... is it possible for them to combine forces and be better than they are individually? They're certainly not each other's enemy, and together could combat those that are...

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David Schmidt
219-614-0654

Okay guys, as some of you know, I love a spirited debate. And to that end, Dave knows that in no way was I attacking him. We both have pretty thick skin from spending a whole lot of time in the truck together....and we talk on the phone about these very subjects.....

I'm simply using Dave as an example of what most people think. "Hey, I guide and judge at every event, why should I be a member"?

A little history lesson is in order I think. In Indiana several years ago there was no "training" season to run our dogs. The state made it only legal to run dogs outside of our kill season via a "sanctioned" event, so clubs formed on two different levels, the state level (ICHA) and the local level. The local club could become a member of the Indiana Coon Hunters Association, who would then sanction hunts for the member clubs. In return, the local clubs would hold "club hunts" s many times a month as the membership would attend. The one and only requirement to attend a club hunt, was club membership.

So in effect, if you wanted to enjoy your dogs year round, you just had to either be a total outlaw, or a club member. As a club member, you knew that two or three times a month the local club would have a club hunt, you could go get a scorecard with a permit number on it, and run your dogs. Now admittedly there wasn't a whole lot of "competing" in some of those casts.....but it was a means to an end.

Then we started a running season, and the sanctioned club hunts held less meaning, and eventually the clubs held less meaning. Not long after that, club membership started to dwindle since it was no longer really attractive to be a member of a local club, and the whole "what's in it for me" question came to mind.

The problem is that we have come full circle now, and only a few die hard members remain. At every club now it is a core of three to five members that make the events happen. And they are stretched beyond their limits in most cases. Being a club member is more to some folks than simply having your name on the roster. It is about representing yourself and looking after something that you care about. By becoming a member of a local hunting club, you are joining forces with folks that have similar interest and becoming willing to give of your time to make sure that the club is successful. If the primary goal of the club is to hold events, then the events must be successful in order for the club to be successful.

The bottom line is this...I've watched different clubs for a lot of years, and the success of any one of those clubs is directly connected to the involvement of the membership. If you have 20 ACTIVE, INVOLVED members, then the chances are that you are going to have about 20 entries for every hunt. Not every member is going to be able to hunt in every event, but you have some non-members that attend, or members of other clubs. If you have 2 active involved members, you might be lucky to have 8 entries.

I personally think that in my home area there are too many clubs competing for the ever shrinking number of potential members. There are too many events, competing for the every shrinking number of participants.

Years ago, I was the president of an ARHA rabbit hunting club. In order to participate in an ARHA field trial...you had to present a membership card to an ARHA sanctioned club. I've often thought that if UKC were interested in it's clubs, they would require the same thing....it worked, we gained members at each and every trial. Not that every one of them would become involved and help keep the club running, the lawn mowed, the weeds pulled and the kitchen staffed....but they all knew that they had a choice in how to make the events and the club successful.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

quote:

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Originally posted by deschmidt27
It just doesn't make sense for a local rod and gun club to just be getting by, along with an archery club and a coon hunters club in the same county. Why can't they team up and do better than they can individually? The same with 3 or 4 coon hunters clubs within 45 minutes of each other... is it possible for them to combine forces and be better than they are individually? They're certainly not each other's enemy, and together could combat those that are...

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__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels