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-- Hybrid vigor ? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928524958)

Re: Breeders

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Originally posted by Dave Richards
I want to say that I truly appreciate ALL of the dedicated breeders accross our great nation. Breeders that have committed many years and many dollars trying to breed a superior line of coon dogs. I truly respect their efforts, without them we would NEVER have the number if good dogs we have today. A dedicated breeder may NOT want to cross breed with another breed of hound and spend the time culling to get consistency in the offspring. I only think that one should cross breed to get immediate results with maybe a few superior pups for ones own use as hunting dogs. Cross breeding is definitely not for everyone, non should it be. Cross breeding is just one tool available , for those with a purebred line of dogs that produce consistent coon dogs with the traits you desire, cross breeding would be the last thing you would want. Dave

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

I totally support my dad in this. All though iam all walker dog man. But ever since UKC created the X bred it's made me want to try it. I have hunt with nice hounds of all breeds. My grandpa owned one of the nicest English dogs I have ever hunted with. He was swamp rooster bred. I also like the leporad hounds. Recently I hunted with a good friends X breed red dog. He was a really nice hound. I think the x bred will help coonhunting.

Dad has really been studying this stuff and will be making a cross on his NITECH gyp soon.

My goals is to take what I have of my dads blood and buy some nice bred walker gyps as pups. I have some things in mind just have to take my time and study my crosses.

I have even been studying some X bred crosses for the future and learning who has what blood.

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HITT KENNELS
YADKIN TAR HOUNDS
Robert & Corey Hitt

Nice to see the father and son teams and those that go into the 3rd generation and beyond. Seems to me it's not all that common to see these days in the hunting hound sports.

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Dan

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Originally posted by DL NH
Nice to see the father and son teams and those that go into the 3rd generation and beyond. Seems to me it's not all that common to see these days in the hunting hound sports.

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HITT KENNELS
YADKIN TAR HOUNDS
Robert & Corey Hitt

I am sold on it for sure , but the crosses got to be right , temperment , handling , and of course track and tree etc. went to the Western Wall tonight , treed 2 and caught a big 25 lb hard running Boar Coon on the ground.

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The more laws a nation has the more corrupt the nation.

When the law of the land becomes unjust outlaws will rise to take their place in history.

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, if your current breeding plan isn't working then you should try something different. It is a smart move on your part. So what have you been doing in the past that didn't work for you? What was your breeding plan/strategy that didn't work?

I have been trying for 25 years to produce nice pups. I have tried breeding "coondog to coondog". I have tried breeding "winner to winner". I even tried breeding a nice Redbone female to Million $ Elmo. I have tried them all but none of them alone worked for me. I have found that I have better success by combining all of the breeding practices together. It is a lot more dificult but works better in the end.
But a big problem with breeding competition dogs is that the standard keeps changing. We have gone from track dogs to tree dogs. We have gone from accuracy to speed to accuracy. We have gone from pack dogs to independent dogs. We have gone from close hunters to deep hunters. About the time that you get your traits fixed, the standard changes.
Good luck with your crossbreeding but that is what it is, not "hybrid vigor". You are X breeding to get desired traits. You could care less about hybrid vigor.

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Eric DePue
Hill Country Kennels Itty-Bitty
PKC CH Wax's Late Night Boom
And
Partners on a few common trashy young dogs

Gone but not forgotten

GrNtCh, PKC Ch Hillbilly Bildo
Pr Broken Oaks Wild Blue Gypsy

If you know anything about me then you would know that I sure didn't keep it a secret when I bred my female to Elmo. David Carr also let everyone that would listen know. Apparently it is a little known fact but there was a Redbone female in the ancestery of a well known walker line and he wanted to try to replicate it. Where do you think that gorgeous red head comes from. Some think that x breeding is something new but it isn't. It has been tried since the very beginning but with very limited success. Anyway I had to single register the pups as Redbones because there was no x bred at the time. There was a loophole that let you PKC single register pups as long as they "met the breed standard". The PKC Redbone men pitched such a fit that PKC came up with their X bred program. But after all of that not one of the pups turned out to be much. I learned my lesson from that. I have tried about every breeding practice and finally settled on what I go by today. It has been 25 yrs of trial and error.

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Tarbaby, if your current breeding plan isn't working then you should try something different. It is a smart move on your part. So what have you been doing in the past that didn't work for you? What was your breeding plan/strategy that didn't work?

I have been trying for 25 years to produce nice pups. I have tried breeding "coondog to coondog". I have tried breeding "winner to winner". I even tried breeding a nice Redbone female to Million $ Elmo. I have tried them all but none of them alone worked for me. I have found that I have better success by combining all of the breeding practices together. It is a lot more dificult but works better in the end.
But a big problem with breeding competition dogs is that the standard keeps changing. We have gone from track dogs to tree dogs. We have gone from accuracy to speed to accuracy. We have gone from pack dogs to independent dogs. We have gone from close hunters to deep hunters. About the time that you get your traits fixed, the standard changes.
Good luck with your crossbreeding but that is what it is, not "hybrid vigor". You are X breeding to get desired traits. You could care less about hybrid vigor.

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Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

I don't get on the forum much but came across this thread and read the 7 pages. It was pretty interesting. I'm not a breeder by any means but just going to throw my 2 cents out there anyways. lol I think hybrid vigor is a non scientific term that is derived from the study's of Sewall Wright in the 1920's. He was referring to the health and well being of stock (Vigor) Going down as the breeding got closer and closer. As noted earlier in a post of this thread the first signs are health and fertility deteriorate. If your not seeing small sickly litters you probably have nothing to worry about. We're lucky enough to not just have a wild guess at it also you can actually calculate how inbreed our dogs are using his work. A minimum of 5 generations is generally a good rule. Also line breeding is inbreeding LOL.

I don't get on the forum much but came across this thread and read the 7 pages. It was pretty interesting. I'm not a breeder by any means but just going to throw my 2 cents out there anyways. lol I think hybrid vigor is a non scientific term that is derived from the study's of Sewall Wright in the 1920's. He was referring to the health and well being of stock (Vigor) Going down as the breeding got closer and closer. As noted earlier in a post of this thread the first signs are health and fertility deteriorate. If your not seeing small sickly litters you probably have nothing to worry about. We're lucky enough to not just have a wild guess at it also you can actually calculate how inbreed our dogs are using his work. A minimum of 5 generations is generally a good rule. Also line breeding is inbreeding LOL.

The outcross will only work if the dog you are breeding to is proven to reproduce good high quality offspring. As many top quality dogs do not even come close to reproducing themselves many just don’t even have mediocre offspring.



Tar

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
The outcross will only work if the dog you are breeding to is proven to reproduce good high quality offspring. As many top quality dogs do not even come close to reproducing themselves many just don’t even have mediocre offspring.



Tar

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I have bred mine to close I have what you call tired blood. I was looking at a total outcross on an above average athlete. Unfortunately I have hunted with three of his offspring and they do not suit me. Shack is an above average athelete and I have hunted with several of his offspring out of different females they suit me although it will be some of the same blood I will take my chances.


Just my honest opinion.


Tar

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
I have bred mine to close I have what you call tired blood. I was looking at a total outcross on an above average athlete. Unfortunately I have hunted with three of his offspring and they do not suit me. Shack is an above average athelete and I have hunted with several of his offspring out of different females they suit me although it will be some of the same blood I will take my chances.


Just my honest opinion.


Tar

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__________________
Tom Wood

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
I have bred mine to close I have what you call tired blood. I was looking at a total outcross on an above average athlete. Unfortunately I have hunted with three of his offspring and they do not suit me. Shack is an above average athelete and I have hunted with several of his offspring out of different females they suit me although it will be some of the same blood I will take my chances.


Just my honest opinion.


Tar

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Tom Wood

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Originally posted by Preacher Tom
Tar the Shack pups I have seen have fire in them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
A top reproducing bluetick and a winning bluetick.



When you have walkers the all grand pedigree and close family breeding has more less caused tired blood yes they tree coons but mine seem to have just stayed the same I want some improvement.


Tar

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Thomasg what’s your point ?


Tar

quote:

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Originally posted by yadkintar
Thomasg what’s your point ?


Tar

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My whole point is the walker breed actually there is no outcross just because of the sheer numbers of pups some stud dogs produced. That’s why I thing the walkers are experiencing more health issues than the other breeds. The only way to get an complete outcross like you said is go to anouther breed. But finding a complete athelete in anouther breed that is a reproducer also will take more research than I have time.



Tar

Tarbaby, what about the Final Four in the truck hunt that PKC just had. Weren't they all outcrosses? Why don't you look at their sires?

Richard I been busy I need to go look at it there are so many hunts now sometimes I miss some.



Tar

Tar, somebody must be making some pretty good Walker to Walker crosses. I think they still win every now and then.

__________________
Donald Bergeron

Donald once you ever found that needle in a haystack you can pretty much bet you will never find it again. I just will have to enjoy what I got because I am poor and those needles in a haystack cost as much as a new automobile now days.


Tar

Tar, don't feel bad. Secretariat's owner has a little more money than you and me and he's still looking for what he once had.

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Donald Bergeron