UKC Forums - Inbreeding Question

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UKC Forums (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/index.php)
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-- Inbreeding Question (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=79960)

Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-01-2006 10:42 PM:

Flipper, is this a relationship that blew up for other reasons, are you a female?

Posted by Flipper on 02-01-2006 10:54 PM:

I am a male. Voyd since your curiosity has got the best of you, ask Justin about the time at Meeker when he took a dog out of another mans box and was 25 feet from the truck because he 'wanted to get a better look at the dog and see how his gaite was.'

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Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-01-2006 11:00 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
Joe, you have to build your foundation with dogs that has the same traits and the only way to do this is raise these pups and train them, taught habits are to often used as traits.

As is typical this post has turned to one of personal bashing.

Voyd,

You are correct, you can't make Evion out of sewer water...no matter how much sewer water you add....it's still sewer water.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-01-2006 11:06 PM:

joe, that wasn't intended as personal bashing in any way, I know that you are using Bozo as the predominant sire but without seeing what each dog that you are breeding peform at all levels of their capiabilities it make it near impossible to cull because you are only seeing the end results from trained dogs or taking coonhunters word as fact but I guess that hunters don't lie so thats ok.

Posted by Mike Trevis on 02-01-2006 11:55 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Flipper
I am a male. Voyd since your curiosity has got the best of you, ask Justin about the time at Meeker when he took a dog out of another mans box and was 25 feet from the truck because he 'wanted to get a better look at the dog and see how his gaite was.'

Tell us what happened Flipper................

__________________
Mike Trevis

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-02-2006 12:30 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
joe, that wasn't intended as personal bashing in any way, I know that you are using Bozo as the predominant sire but without seeing what each dog that you are breeding peform at all levels of their capiabilities it make it near impossible to cull because you are only seeing the end results from trained dogs or taking coonhunters word as fact but I guess that hunters don't lie so thats ok.

Voyd,

The first part of that post was not aimed at you in any way. I just see way too many "good" posts where there is a good conversation turned into a bickering match. Shoot, I am suprised that the moderators have not deleted this post already.

Sorry if you misunderstood my meaning. The quote was just so I could use the sewer water line!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-02-2006 12:41 AM:

Joe, no problem, I'm interested in what you are doing and how you go about qualifying a dog to be used. If you can stand everybody throwing rocks at you I would appreciate it if you would explain it to the board.

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-02-2006 01:50 AM:

Voyd,

It's no different than anybody else who studies dogs. To start with, my first "selection" criteria is that the female must be "related" to my male. After all that is what I am breeding on...so that makes sense.

Haveing made that determination, I then have limited the pool dramatically. The next criteria is that the female must show "family characteristics". Clover bred dogs are know to have a bawl mouth on track, and she must have a good bawl mouth on track. Tree style must be within acceptable parameters..I'm not as cracked up on the stand on the wood 140 barks a minute as most. I don't care if they bark 60 times a minute, but they must have a good located, stay treed for as long as I decide I want to take to get there, and foremost, they absolutly must be accurate. I lose patience in about two drops of looking at a slick tree. ZERO tolerance for a dog that trees slick.

I know guys...they all miss occaisionally....and I allow for that. But missing twice in a row...that is not breeding stock for me. I don't make as many trees as a lot of guys, but I look at more coon than most.

It is rather hard to put into words what it took me thirty plus years to learn, its about not only looking at the end result (is there a coon in the tree), but how did we get to the end. Does this dog represent the family of dogs in which she is decended, that I am breeding for. Did the dog tree only "easy" coon, or does she fall apart when the conditions get rough. Will she hunt until she finds game, or is she running through the countryside...is she running under coon to get "gone"....

As I said, it has taken me a while to learn the characteristics of the family of dogs....I look for collections of characteristics. None of them are "perfect". Becasuse each dog is really an individual, it is easy for me to "improve". I am certainly not at the pinnacle today. I believe I have the tools to get there, but as you mention I have a lot of work to do yet in just evaluation of the abilities.

I don't raise and train every pup that is born in my kennel, and don't think that I shoud have to in order to evaluate my breeding program. I normally keep two pups out of each litter. I can evaluate strenghts, weaknesses, and uniformity of the litter by watching those two pups. I try to keep pretty close tabs on my pups and have to trust the judgement of those that are hunting them.

This doesn't even start to cover "what I am doing" but it is the foundation.....the starting point.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by berger on 02-02-2006 02:55 AM:

Was just wondering how many inbred dogs are winning consistently in the hunts. Also what top reproducing females and males are inbred.

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Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-02-2006 03:06 AM:

I don't know any that are winning in a big way or producing top pups.

Posted by larrypoe on 02-02-2006 03:50 AM:

Oak Ridge, sounds like you have a good, long term breeding plan. I think you are on the right track. Fact is that this type of breeding plan takes longer to improve, but the consistency is far better. Any outcrossed mutt can preform, but it takes a solid background to preform and produce. You will never........read carefully....NEVER GET THAT FROM AN OUTCROSSED MUTT. How many of those kind of studs have won and flopped in the breeding pen.
My personal requirements are for them to have 1 dog in a 3 generation pedegree that is the same. That or closer. And to preform to my standerds with no bad faults, with none of the same weaknesses. Thats just my requirements though.

Posted by Jack Metzger on 02-02-2006 04:46 PM:

i have a Nice hound that his parents were half brother/sister by the mom, and he is as nice as they come. i see nothing wrong with it.................................JMO

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-02-2006 05:23 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
I don't know any that are winning in a big way or producing top pups.

I can think of a cople that are winning in PKC.

HUBS Homer, the product of a mother X son cross. He has done his share of winning in PKC, and has proven himself as a reproducing stud as well.

Skuna River Fred
GCH in PKC, not as tight as Homer, but is a half brother x half sister cross.

The problem is that UKC still stamps "INBREED" on the pedigrees. This purpetuates the stigma, and I truly beleive that it keeps a lot of folks form making those kinds of crosses. I personally don't care, but if your female was a close enough relative to my male, would you choose my male as a stud even if the papers of the pups would be stamped? You may not care, but it does make a difference when you try to sell the pups....

Let's define "inbred".....there is another post on this message board about "close family" participating in events of the MOH or bench show judge. By UKC's definition of "close family" a half brother or half sister could not show under a bench show judge. It's too "close". But a half brother x half sister cross is not stamped "inbred"...it is considered "line breeding".

What we are really talking about is inbreeding coefficient, a complicated mathmatical equation that calcuates the percentage of a common ancestor.

Would you consider this inbreeding or line breeding?

........GRNTCH Owen'd Hardwood Bozo
......GRNTCH Logan's Wild Clover
........GRNTCH Logan's Wild Julie
...CHGRNTCH Tony's Wild Clover
........GRNTCH River Bend Flg
......GRNTCH Logan's Wild Jeanie
........GRNTCH Magill's Lonepine Jill

Female's Pedigree
.........GRNTCH Rock River Sackett Jr.
......NTCH Stylish Hairy Sack
........GRNTCH Schmersal's Stylish Hanna
...NTCH Stylish Sissy
........PR Stylish Clover
......PR Simple Man Jill
........NTCH Bodenburg's Wigley

Before you answer let me tell you this much. Logan's Wild Clover is Stylish Clovers sire. Schmesal's Stylish Hanna is a daughter of a littermate sister to Stylish Clover. The Wigley dog is a decendant of Lipper, who also is in Stylish Clovers second generation....AND Logan's Wild Jeanie is a half sister to Logan's Wild Clover's mother. So the sire of this litter was inbred on the dam's side (Julie and Jeanie were half-sisters) and the Dam of the litter was inbred because Hanna and Clover are related along with Wigley and Clover being related through Lipper.

In my mind, this is an example of inbreeding. We are crossing on FAMILIES of coon dogs, not one single individual. But this pup will be born and will not have "inbred" stamped on it's papers.

__________________
Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-02-2006 05:30 PM:

Joe, I don't consider that inbreeding.

Posted by josh on 02-02-2006 06:38 PM:

Joe,

IMO thats an outcross...

Joe, Im curious, what is the tightest you have bred?

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-02-2006 06:42 PM:

Okay, that is "line breeding"....by Voyd's definition

How about this...

************Hardwood Bozo
*********Logan's Wild Clover
************Logan's Wild Julie
*****Stylish Clover
************House's Lipper
*********Korte's Stylish Chirpee
************Schmersal's Stylish Queen
**The Joker
************Hard Knockin Stylish Hayes
***********Ball's Stylish Hickory Nut Harry
************Schmersal's Stylish Anna (Littermate to Clover)
****Gadd's Indiana Singing Yaya
************Iowa County Sinner
**********Starn's Oklahoma Sadie
************Iowa County Yad. R. Bell

PUPS

************Rock River Sackett
**********Rock River Sackett Jr.
***********Skean's Dolly
***Fletcher's Stylish Jake
************Hard Knockin Stylish Hayes
**********Fletcher's Stylish Ann
************Schmersal's Stylish Anna (Littermate to Clover)
**Mystery Female
************Owen's Hardwood Bozo
**********Logan's Wild Clover
*************Logan's Wild Julie
****Schmersal's Stylish Anna
*************House's Lipper
*********Korte's Stylish Chirpee
*************Schmersal's Stylish Queen.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by sheepster on 02-02-2006 06:45 PM:

sent you a pm joe.

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Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-02-2006 06:48 PM:

very tight family linebreeding, thats looks good to me

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-02-2006 06:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by josh
Joe,

IMO thats an outcross...

Joe, Im curious, what is the tightest you have bred?

In dogs? I routinely make half brother half sister crosses. I'll be pretty picky about the dogs that get crossed closer than that...but I am not afraid to do just that.

With the horses, one of our top crosses was a 3/4 brother to sister cross. Worked out great!

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Oak Ridge on 02-02-2006 07:08 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
very tight family linebreeding, thats looks good to me

Voyd that is an interesting view point.

*******Logan's Wild Clover
*****Stylish Clover
*******Korte's Stylish Chirpee
*The Joker
********Ball's Stylish Hickory Nut Harry
******Gadd IN Singin Yaya
********Starn's Oklahoma Sadi
Pups
*******Logan's Wild Clover
*****Stylish Clover
*******Korte's Stylish Chirpee
*Oak Ridge Stylish Missy
*******Tar Heel Henry
*****Tar Heel Squirt
******Broad River Kentucky Moon

The COI (Coefficient of Inbreeding) on this half brother x half sister cross is 15.6%

The COI of the litter named above the previous post is 14.1%

If you breed a dog to itself, the COI is 54.1%

Where do you draw the line with "inbreeding"?

Tony's Wild Clover's COI is 12.3%

An Uncle x Niece cross is 11.2%

Sheep your inbox is full.

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Joe Newlin
UKC Cur Advocate
Home of Oak Ridge Kennels

Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-02-2006 07:35 PM:

line beeding because of the bottom side of your female is a different line. You should take a female pup back to Joker and a male back to his mother then mate those pups, you would have a lot of stylish clover, those pups should produce.

Posted by Mike Trevis on 02-02-2006 07:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Voyd Cannon
line beeding because of the bottom side of your female is a different line. You should take a female pup back to Joker and a male back to his mother then mate those pups, you would have a lot of stylish clover, those pups should produce.

I agree with this 100%..it is linebreeding and not really close..

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Mike Trevis

Posted by willscrk on 02-02-2006 08:30 PM:

inbred on top producers and top cross

-----------------------------grnte northern bl jet v
----------------------nitech.northern blue sampson
----------------------------- northern blue crystal
----------- dual grch n.bl.sampson's diamond rock
-----------------------------grntech koosers diamond dandy
----------------------grch.banes misty mt. sis
--------------------------nitech.grch kooser's fly

----------------------------dual grch n.bl.sampson's diamond rock
--------------------grch.nitech wills creek blue ben
----------------------------grch.wills creek stinging sadie
-------------wills creek stinging sadie 2
----------------------nitech northern blue sting(double grandson jetv)
-------------------grch.wills creek stinging sadie
-----------------------browns indiana blue hooker

sadie 2 is doing super--she is almost identicle in action as her sire ben------she is due in heat any time and i am really looking forward to those pups.

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dual grch.n.bl.sampson's diamond rock--ukc top reproducer
dual grch.will's creek blue ben
grch.will's creek stinging sadie--ukc top reproducer
ch.will's creek stinging katie
dual grch.willscrk quaker blue music
ch.rock's northern blue shadow--ukc top reproducer
nitech.will's creek diamond dandy
nitech.rock's northern blue jammer
nitech.grch.will's creek bawling bl luke
nitech. will's creek stinging sadie ll
ch.grntech.will's creek slim
nitech.will's creek blue maggie

Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-02-2006 08:46 PM:

Re: inbred on top producers and top cross

quote:
Originally posted by willscrk
-----------grnte northern bl jet v
-------nitech.northern blue sampson
---------- northern blue crystal
--------- dual grch n.bl.sampson's diamond rock
-----------grnt ch kooser's diamond dandy - ------ grch.banes misty mt.sis
-----------ntech.grch kooser's fly

---------dual grch n.bl.sampson's diamond rock
---------grch.nitech wills creek blue ben
---------grch.wills creek stinging sadie
-------wills creek stinging sadie 2
----------nitech northern blue sting(double grandson jetv)
-----grch.wills creek stinging sadie
----------browns indiana blue hooker

sadie 2 is doing super--she is almost identicle in action as her sire ben------she is due in heat any time and i am really looking forward to those pups.

What are you going to breed her to?

Posted by Voyd Cannon on 02-02-2006 09:13 PM:

I bet it works.

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