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-- Dear Judge . . . (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=439879)

Houndawg, I LMAO. I love your reply and found it extremely relevant.

Violet D

I betcha David thinks it's funny when he sees it.

Continue posting the comments good or bad because we can all learn somethig from them.

Doberman Pinschers

When judging the Doberman Pinscher please check for the 1st Premolar (P1) as well as the 3rd Molar (M3) on the lower jaw.

A Doberman should single track when gaited at a trot, not pace. The rolling gait belongs to the Bulldog, not the Doberman! No sideways swinging of the ribcage or rolling over the shoulders. They might stack up nicely, but if they can't move correctly, function isn't there.

Tail: "appears to be a continuation of the spine". If a tail is standing at HIGH NOON, that is not a continuation of the spine and it is incorrect.

Please judge the dogs presented to you how they are THAT day, not how they might "potentially" turn out in the future!

And by all means, (as many have already expressed), if there is something / anything you aren't sure of, please take a moment to check the standard.

ONCE AGAIN..

I was told my dog was too square. 10:9 is almost square. That dog is 12 x 13.5"

Rat terriers are getting TOO long and veering away from the standard too much, that say a RT should 10:9. When a dog is that close to the perfect 10:9 and is told she is too square...


If you judges continue to award dogs that are vary significantly from the length .. I will not show to you. Your wrong and your not judging to the standard. This is a small to medium compact dog. I will continue to breed to the standard even if your not going to judge to it.

A short legged dog is a DQ. A dog that is too long should be judged acordingly and not calling dogs that are closer to the standard too square.. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE almost square..

The Rat Terrier standard on height to length:

The preferred ratio of length of body (prosternum to point of buttocks) to height (withers to ground) to is 10:9.

Rat Terrier is slightly longer (measured from prosternum to point of buttocks) than tall (measured from the withers to the ground),

Disqualifications
A short-legged dog whose proportions vary significantly from the 10:9 ratio.

__________________
Darla@KnD Kennels Rat Terriers
"The Best Little Whole House Of Rat Terriers In Texas"
Home of:
UKC GrCh KnD's Diamond In The Ruff
a.k.a.
"The Rock"
www.kndkennels.com
www.imageevent.com/kndkennels

It is fun and fine to make jokes about judging and judges. But always remember what a hard job it really is. Yes we would love to know your standard from front to back. Each and every word in it. It isn't going to happen. We do study them. We judge to the best of our ability on the day. We go over the dogs that are presented to us and try to find the best one in our minds. If you bring us not to standard dogs. Than we may start thinking that all (breed here) look like that or should be like that. It really is up to the breeders/owners to know their standards and show accordingly.

If you think judging is easy. Come try it. Jump through all the hoops and get your license. Then come join us in the center ring. I can bet after the first three breeds your blood is really going to be pumping. Your mind going loopy. And you will be standing there wondering "did I put up the correct dogs?". It is not easy. We choose the dogs that day that in our minds we feel are the best that was presented to us. Closest to the standards.

It really comes down to you the exhibitor to make sure that you are bringing in dogs that are to standard. Dont try to sneak a dog through that has DQ'S and hope we dont find them. We cannot know all the standards by heart. We can study them and remember as much as possible. There are just too many to know all of them word for word. You know your standard. I know mine. I will study yours. I will judge your dogs. I will award those that I feel are worthy.

I promise as a judge to do the best of my ability to judge your animals. You need to promise as a breeder/owner to exhibit dogs that are proper examples of your breed.


Kathie Brown
UKC judge

kathie.,... I agree with some you say,,, but you should not just give a ribbon to the best dog in the ring,, the best of what you have offered.

If the best does not meet the standard,,,, award NO RIBBON.

If Judges keep dishing out ribbons to mediocre dogs just to be nice,,, just to keep a family friendly atmosphere,,, and just to be invited back to judge..... ALL breeds will be crap like some are now.

There is a discussion circulating right now that many winning Rat Terriers could also win in the Basenji ring.... Judges/Friends Keep putting these dogs up.... who is at fault,,, the exhibitor or the judges encouraging these breeders to bring back more of this "type"..

The Judges must be a little responsible too..... Judge to the standard not to be nice or just pick the best of a bad group of dogs.

Judging is a hard job,, but it IS a job... no-one is forced to do it... Claiming that "we cannot be expected to know every standard"... seems to be a lame excuse to me. I am sorry if that offends.

It should be easy to see a Basenji should not beat a Rat Terrier in the ring... If you and I can mistake a dog for another breed surely it does not meet the standard.

Also,, not just the big dogs,, I have seen one judge mistake a Rattie for a TFT IN THE RING,,, She said it... BUT that dog belonged to the host.....

Guess who won????

Kathie,, this is not a fight,, nor are my opinions new.... I am sure you see similar things in your breed. We all do.

Showing numbers are suffering.... Judges using the buddy system of judging surely will not help.

We do not mind losing,,, but most breeders/exhibitors want to enter the ring at least thinking they have a chance.... Tell us people , do you KNOW you have NO CHANCE in some rings with some exhibitor/judge combinations.

More than sour grapes,, just fact. Not just me,, not just my breed. Surely someone will listen one day.

Juidges have a specific set of rules.... I seen a judge AND the exhibitor physically struggle to hold the muzzle of a growling dog at my last show,, the dog growl could be heard outside the ring... and NOTHING was done... the dog walked away growling with a ribbon.

The judge said to my wife,, "I hope your dog is more friendly than that one"...... Guess who won????

Do not ask me about limping dogs?????

The rules on limping and aggressive dogs are VERY clear. What is the issue with following these rules. Are judges scared of exhibitors, hosts, breeders?????

Judges do want to be liked,,, and they do want to enjoy their "job".... I have a great time with Judges... They are people... but I respect the ones that follow the rules that are obvious.

They know it is not a popularity contest. They suffer from sore losers complaining their perfect dog was ignored,,, but they have the respect of most exhibitors.... not just the winners.

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

quote:

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Originally posted by KYASHI
It is fun and fine to make jokes about judging and judges. But always remember what a hard job it really is. Yes we would love to know your standard from front to back. Each and every word in it. It isn't going to happen. We do study them. We judge to the best of our ability on the day. We go over the dogs that are presented to us and try to find the best one in our minds. If you bring us not to standard dogs. Than we may start thinking that all (breed here) look like that or should be like that. It really is up to the breeders/owners to know their standards and show accordingly.

If you think judging is easy. Come try it. Jump through all the hoops and get your license. Then come join us in the center ring. I can bet after the first three breeds your blood is really going to be pumping. Your mind going loopy. And you will be standing there wondering "did I put up the correct dogs?". It is not easy. We choose the dogs that day that in our minds we feel are the best that was presented to us. Closest to the standards.

It really comes down to you the exhibitor to make sure that you are bringing in dogs that are to standard. Dont try to sneak a dog through that has DQ'S and hope we dont find them. We cannot know all the standards by heart. We can study them and remember as much as possible. There are just too many to know all of them word for word. You know your standard. I know mine. I will study yours. I will judge your dogs. I will award those that I feel are worthy.

I promise as a judge to do the best of my ability to judge your animals. You need to promise as a breeder/owner to exhibit dogs that are proper examples of your breed.


Kathie Brown
UKC judge

---

__________________
Darla@KnD Kennels Rat Terriers
"The Best Little Whole House Of Rat Terriers In Texas"
Home of:
UKC GrCh KnD's Diamond In The Ruff
a.k.a.
"The Rock"
www.kndkennels.com
www.imageevent.com/kndkennels

quote:

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Originally posted by KYASHI

If you think judging is easy. Come try it. Jump through all the hoops and get your license.

---

Dear Judge

I just wanted to say.. to the above threads .. I took this thread very serious as I thought judges truly wanted to know our thoughts and opinions. I did not take it as a joke,.

__________________
Darla@KnD Kennels Rat Terriers
"The Best Little Whole House Of Rat Terriers In Texas"
Home of:
UKC GrCh KnD's Diamond In The Ruff
a.k.a.
"The Rock"
www.kndkennels.com
www.imageevent.com/kndkennels

While sitting grooming a dog today a thought hit me hard in the head. I realized that most of the time that we as exhibitors scream that a judge does not know our standard is when we have lost. When we win then the judge is very knowledgable in our breed. What we havent thought is that maybe the one who awarded us didnt know it well either. We just got lucky and won.

How many times do we cry foul about a judge when the camel on wheels wins over our dog? Or the two headed cat that the judge gave best in show to and loudly stated that it was the best poodle they had ever seen? It is in the eye of the beholder. The judge.

We state we are not kennel blind. Reality. We are. We read the standards one way. A judge may read it another. One breeder prefers to breed one type. We breed the other. Both can be correct.

As a judge I do my best to learn your breed and understand every aspect of it. I am given limited time to decide if your dog fits all the requirements of your breed. Unfortunately I do not have all day to make sure that your dog fits to perfection what your standard states. I only have minutes.

I know some people will think I am a great judge. Others will think I should go into underwater basket weaving. My job is to award the dogs that I feel are worthy.

So if you see me giving best in show to the purple peanut eating bandit that walks backwards. Know that I know their standards states that is what they do with an easy, soft movement that looks like they are floating. That they have a level top line. Scissor bite. And any red markings are a DQ. And he was the best one I have ever seen.

And yes I did choose to be a judge. I waited 40 years to do it. I didn't take it lightly. I wanted to learn as much as possible about as many breeds as possible before I took on this endeavor. And if at any time I feel I am not doing justice for the dogs, the breeders, the exhibitors. I will retire.

And as an exhibitor if you feel I do not know enough of your breed. Teach me. If you want to learn about my breed. Ask. I am willing to not only learn but to teach as well. No one knows everything. We spend our entire lives learning. But don't expect every judge to know your standard by heart. We try. We do our best. We are only human.


Happy showing.


Kathie Brown

sour grapes?

It seems like some of the judges that have replied in this thread are taking it personally. This is what the exhibitors see and experience.

I know my dogs aren't perfect and have their flaws. But when you see a dog that can't move correctly, that's not a flaw, it's a fault and a major one at that!

What I had posted in the "Judging Rare Breeds" thread was a disservice to the Doberman breed. A puppy that 5 judges previously saw an issue with and didn't move the puppy beyond its class, yet show 6 gets put up over 2 rather nice females, then over a CH, then a Group 2?!?!?! My dog wasn't even at the show. I had nothing invested in that weekend. I just stopped by to see the last day of shows on my way through that area, so it certainly isn't "sour grapes". Just honest observation!

dobedad.

You are right. It is much too easy to dismiss criticism of poor judging as sour grapes.

But as I said,,, I am talking about breeds other than mine, shows I have no entry in and even wins I have received.

No sour grapes... poor judging.

Judges should not ask for honest opinions if they truly do not want them.

We all want dog showing to thrive... it means we ALL must improve,, Dogs, Exhibitors AND Judges.

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

quote:

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Originally posted by KnD
Judges should not ask for honest opinions if they truly do not want them.

---

You are wrong,,, Exhibitors should demand HONEST opinions,,, that is what this thread is all about.

We pay for the opinion,,, surely we have a right to expect that opinion to be educated and honest and have nothing to do with who is on the other end of the lead.

Judges are not gods,,, they are not born with knowledge,,, they must work to know standards,,, work to be a great judge or quit.

The judges decision is final that is true,,, but bad or unfair judging will make it their final decision for many of us.

People cannot be expected to spend hard earned dollars on second rate service. ALL they want is a fair shake.

Too many are claiming bad reactions to bad judging is just sour grapes,,,, that is not always the case and is way too easy to use as an excuse for poor judging.

I will give you an example,,,,

A few years ago,, My dog won the Grans Class,,, a friend's dog won the Champion class... a newbie won the best of winners with a VERY green dog that had to be dragged aaround the ring... literally.

Here we go for best of breed.... My grand and the champion were not only the two best dogs in the ring,, but the class dog was still being dragged along,, it did not walk three step. It looked liek a dog dragging it's bum on the ground to easy the itch from worms... it really did.

The judge in his wisdom,, offered the lady some advice,, on lead placement,, he even adjusted the lead....

The dogs still dragged along behind her.

The Judge,, took the dog off the lady and HE tried to walk it "down and back".... he looked worse than "mum" did.... the dog made him look stupid.

Myself and the champion's handler just smiled at each other and appreciated he at least tried,,,, and he encouraged the lady.

To our amazement he then gave that drag racer the best of breed. The grand was seasoned,, and here ch had become a grand that show,,,,, so they were both seasoned quality dogs.

An of duty judge ringside was beside himself.... he was as stunned as we were.

The worst thing???? Not our losses.. ****, they happen.... but the worst thing was painfully watching the group ring,,, as the lady AGAIN dragged that dog around the ring..... and people thought,,, "Crap,, THAT is teh best the Rat Terrier breeders here have to offer"....

That single incident made the judge look bad, our breed look bad and UKC look bad. I have never and will never show to that judge again,, and he has never been invited back to Texas....

Another......

show one in OK.... a class dog could not get out of his 5 point class all weekend.... against some very nice dogs....

Two weeks later,, Same dog, same handler , Same judge, very same competition... ..... that dog limped around the ring very noticeably. It won best of breed.

Limped.... all the way around the ring,,, and down and back.

How could it possibly win???

OH,, the difference? ,,, The dog's owner and handler was hosting this show. How could that make a difference enough to make a poor quality LIMPING dog win???

Are incidents like this to be acceptable because Judges are always right?? I do not think so.

UKC tells us to complain.... who to?,,, The person handling the dog that was hosting the show??

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

Dear Judge

There is a discussion circulating right now that many winning Rat Terriers could also win in the Basenji ring....

Since when is the movement of a Basenji anything at all like the movement of a Rat Terrier?

quote:

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Originally posted by KYASHI
It really comes down to you the exhibitor to make sure that you are bringing in dogs that are to standard. Dont try to sneak a dog through that has DQ'S and hope we dont find them. We cannot know all the standards by heart. We can study them and remember as much as possible. There are just too many to know all of them word for word. You know your standard. I know mine. I will study yours. I will judge your dogs. I will award those that I feel are worthy.

---

__________________
AG1 RO1 AP Lilly B the Birdie CGC, Rat Terrier
BPIS BPISS Damskij Kapriz Russian Roulette, Russkiy Toy
URO1 Ch. AP Riley's Bit Of Irish Chaos RN CGC Irish Wolfhound
Ch AP Rhea SunShine Irish Wolfhoud
AP Rhea of Irish Chaos Irish Wolfhound. my first BBE puppy!
UAGI UCD URO2 GRCH Caucasian Legend Cokhta CGC, Caucasian Ovcharka Top Ten #1 2010 (Best of Breed only CO to have this), Top Ten #1 2011 (B2B Top Ten #1 first time in CO history) Total Dogx4 (only CO to have earned this ) (breeds first GrCh and first Rally titled dog)
URO1 CH. Volkodav Rossii Gray, Caucasian Ovcharka, BPIMBSx2 Made Ch at 7mo!
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-------------------------------------------
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AP Rafferty RN, CGC, Irish Wolfhound
*******************************
If you wouldn't give your life for what your doing, change your life!

Sorry you feel that way, Ken, but I am 110% correct.

quote:

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Originally posted by KnD
Again I will say,, I respect 99% of judges... it is not about winning or losing.... lol

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quote:

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Originally posted by Houndawgs
The math just doesn't add up. Just by the number of "examples" you've posted on this page alone, just this page, you would have to attend hundreds of UKC shows every year. HUNDREDS!

You have cited many times how judges award wins to "faces". Have you bothered to consider how many dogs LOSE because of who is on the lead? In your case it might be something you'll want to think about.

---

Trust me, we're not saying the same thing.

Oh.. and here are the "examples" I was talking about...

If Judges keep dishing out ribbons to mediocre dogs just to be nice,,, just to keep a family friendly atmosphere,,, and just to be invited back to judge..... ALL breeds will be crap like some are now.

There is a discussion circulating right now that many winning Rat Terriers could also win in the Basenji ring.... Judges/Friends Keep putting these dogs up....

I have seen one judge mistake a Rattie for a TFT IN THE RING,,, She said it... BUT that dog belonged to the host..... Guess who won????

Judges using the buddy system of judging surely will not help.

Tell us people , do you KNOW you have NO CHANCE in some rings with some exhibitor/judge combinations.

I seen a judge AND the exhibitor physically struggle to hold the muzzle of a growling dog at my last show,, the dog growl could be heard outside the ring... and NOTHING was done... the dog walked away growling with a ribbon. The judge said to my wife,, "I hope your dog is more friendly than that one"...... Guess who won????

Do not ask me about limping dogs????? The rules on limping and aggressive dogs are VERY clear. What is the issue with following these rules. Are judges scared of exhibitors, hosts, breeders?????

I seen other judges award really bad dogs,, and I question that judgement,, then I remember they have put my dogs up.. OOPS,,, what value is that win... lol lol

The judge ,,, noticing the handling change,, (I think) knowing which dog the owner WANTED to win,, awarded that silly puppy the win over the number one dog in the nation.... Seen this over and over,,, very well known breeders handing off dogs to novice handlers while they themself smile and show the ONE..... which end of that lead is the judge looking??????

We pay for the opinion,,, surely we have a right to expect that opinion to be educated and honest and have nothing to do with who is on the other end of the lead.

I will give you an example,,,,

Another......



12 of your examples just from this page. I'm assuming you don't respect the judges from these examples. To respect 99% of the judges you would need to attend enough shows to observe over 1200 judges. That takes lots of shows. And lots of judges. How many conformation judges are approved by UKC? Not enough to garner 99% of your respect.

quote:

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Originally posted by Houndawgs
Trust me, we're not saying the same thing.

---

Houndawgs

May I ask who you are so I know who I am talking to. I am not sure I like talking to anonymous posters while I state my name and web site on every post.

Your main concern being my math skills is amusing... I guess but does not offer any real answer to people on this thread suggesting that Judges need to be more clued in to judging.

The original poster is a respected (even by me houndawgs) UKC judge.,.. and he too suggested that SOME judges need more skills to judge his breed. He did not disrespect any judge in particular,, just suggested all need to look at breeds and breed standards.

Other UKC Judges have chimed in stating that Judges need to look closer at their breeds.

It is not about judge bashing,,, no one has singled out and named and judges,,,,, this discussion is to improve ALL shows... IT WAS STARTED BY A UKC JUDGE.... and not all in humour that has been suggested.

To ease you mind,,, I will retract my 99% ,,, but I will add that my experiences were not quoted from one year,,, so I would not in fact need to attend 100's of shows a year.

In fact there are NOT 100's of shows a year,, and might I suggest that if things do not improve,, there will be even less shows.... your checking my math will get even easier.

Might I also please add,,, I respect the many posters (I will not dare guess at a %)... That state their name in posts,, even if they are a judge. It shows they have a real opinion and will put their name to it... It means more than they know.

Hound,, You replied to me,, "I am sorry you feel the way you do Ken but I am 110% right".... I have a problem with that. You are not right just because you said it..... what you are stating here is an opinion.... AN OPINION..... My dad taught me that Opinions are like Aholes,,, we ALL get one each,, no matter what.

Your opinion is just that,, an opinion,,, and it does not make you right or wrong.... but I will fight to let you voice it,,, whether I agree or not. I will also claim that I too am entitled to one. (My dad said)

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

You can ask but I won't answer.

And I am not at all concerned about your math skills.

I have other opinions but I don't think you want to hear them either.

You are right,, I am most likely better off without your opinions,,, and you not wanting to post other than anomymously makes me even better off dismissing it for the most part.

And as for your concern for my math skills,,, that was your main point.... you even explained your calculations,,, if not a concern,, you went to a lot of trouble for nothing.

Anonymous posts should be afforded the respect they have due them.... as should posts made with names clearly and proudly stated.

Others can think as they wish but I prefer people that will stand up proudly and sign their words,,,, I still may disagree from time to time but I will repsect the courage that comes with that signaturted honesty.

Ken of KnD
www.kndkennels.com

whatever