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-- What rule??? (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928541412)

The panel would have had a very hard time ruling differently. He broke the rule but.... was not one of the panel's choices. They could and probably did agree with the handler but still he broke the rule. A panel can only rule on whether a rule was broken or not. There is no leeway for a panel to consider extenuating circumstances. Then when they decide that a rule was broken (and it seems that everyone agrees that a rule was broken) there was only one penalty and that was scratching the handler/dog. There was no way for the panel to decide that it was only 3 seconds or there was some confusion or it didn't affect the outcome. In UKC a panel can only rule on whether the rule was broken or not.
Now we on the other hand can argue about the extenuating circumstances and how it was a very small rule infraction brought on by some confusion or misunderstanding. But the rules don't have maximum or minimum penalties depending on whether it was a mistake or gross infraction. Can you imagine what would happen if a panel could say, yes a handler broke a rule but we don't think he really meant to so we are going to let him get by with it this time. Or what if a panel could say yes he broke a rule but his dog was leading the cast by 300 points.

The rules are black and white as they should be…and as already mentioned there are good reasons for maintaining the discipline…

Many times in years past we would see a bad call made and an important game was lost because of it…pro football has become a better game now that certain calls can be called for review and certain plays are automatically reviewed…a bad call can be reversed and the pro football game is better because of this flexibility and improvement…

__________________
Training dogs is not so much about quantity, it's more about timing, and the right situations...After that it's up to the dog....A hunting dog is born...

Richard you are correct but where in the rules does it say what the punishment should be for this rule being broken ? ...it does not... in other areas the rules are very specific as to what the punishment should be if they are broken... the judge did not scratch the dog at the time of the offense. Had he done so then I’d say the panels job would be to uphold the scratch or not...therefore I’d argue that other options were available had they chosen to take them..

I sure hope I never draw you (gettum scratched anyway possible so I can win) bootlickers. Here a few years ago they did not scratch a guy in the final cast for shaking vines. I guess that was different?

Have you ever seen/heard a recall official say that, "yes he stepped out of bounds but he was only barely out of bounds and only one step"?
A panel can and they often do rule that a judge made a bad call or was wrong concerning the way that a rule was applied. They can and often do either agree with or overturn a judgement call.
That is not what happened in this case. Does UKC need a rule that says a panel can decide how bad an infraction was? Maybe they could only warn a handler and allow him to keep hunting. Or they could delete or circle points instead of plussing or minusing them. Do we want to give panels that authority? They don't have it now. Everything is black or white. Does a panel need the authority to say some rulings are gray?

quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
I sure hope I never draw you (gettum scratched anyway possible so I can win) bootlickers. Here a few years ago they did not scratch a guy in the final cast for shaking vines. I guess that was different?

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I’d sure hate to win a cast like that

quote:

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Originally posted by JB Cobb
Richard.......therefore I’d argue that other options were available had they chosen to take them..

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Mr Lambert is spot on with this. The panel had no other option. Im just saying the rule doesn't say a handler can release the dog but has 3 seconds or 10 seconds to catch it. I was on a jury one time where a parent punched a softball coach in the nose on school property. And after hearing what happened this coach deserved it he was being ridiculous and I would not vote guilty because I would have done the same thing. For 3 days I was the only person on the jury to vote not guilty. Finally the judge sat me down alone and explained to me that I was not being asked if I agreed with what the parent done. And I was not being asked if the coach deserved it or not but I was simply being asked did the man do it. So I said yes that's obvious and I learned that day how rules and laws work. The judge explained to me that he himself thought the coach deserved it but if he let this go unpunished then it opens the door for every parent out there to just punch a coach whenever they thought they deserved it. So the panel wasn't being asked if they agreed with it or if they thought it was just a small unintentional mistake they were simply being asked is their evidence that this happened and if so what are the consequences. The only thing that can be corrected going forward is asking is the crime worth the punishment? I absolutely definitely hate that it happened this way and I totally don't like the fact that someone even questioned it. And yes I think whoever questioned it was just trying to get rid of the leading dog and win at any cost. But the panel had no other option in my opinion.

__________________
Gr Nite Ch Sand Mtn Train
Nite Ch Pch Reserve World Ch Sand Mtn Skid
Platinum Ch Sand Mtn Little Profit

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Lambert
Exactly what other option was available?

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quote:

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Originally posted by elvis
I believe the panel could have ruled differently Had they ruled that there was some confusion between handler and judge which caused a dog to be loose for three seconds but had absolutely no bearing on the outcome of the cast, they are going with the judge instead of a scratch that would make a huge difference in the cast. I believe everyone involved would have been ok with it including UKC.

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__________________
NOW THE LUNATICS ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM IN WASHINGTON,DC.
MY SILENCE DOES NOT MEAN I AGREE WITH YOU...IT MEANS YOUR LEVEL OF STUPIDITY RENDERS ME SPEECHLESS
I AM NOT ARGUING WITH YOU..I AM JUST TRYING TO EXPLAIN WHY I AM RIGHT
TRUTH IS TREASON IN AN EMPIRE OF LIES...G. Orwell
DON'T BELIEVE ANYTHING THE GOVERNMENT TELLS YOU...G. Carlin
ONLY THOSE WHO HAVE SOMETHING TO HIDE WORK RELENTLESSLY TO CENSOR THOSE WHO SPEAK THE TRUTH...Ron DeSantis

Biggest Loser

The BIGGEST LOSER is not Gerald Keegan and Russ Bellar!

Elvis

What would Russ do in this situation. I know what he would of done he would of done the same thing I would of done. It’s the handlers responsibility to make sure he understands the judge.

__________________
Jason Smith
Home Of
National GrNtCh GrNt GrCh Dark Side of Skuna River

Gr Nt Ch Maniac's Dark Side of the Moon

First – Congratulations to everyone who made it to the finals in Peru, Indiana and a “thank you” to the UKC staff and Eukanuba for putting on a great hunt at a terrific facility.

Second - Steve Burkholder – I was looking forward to your World Hunt analysis and the Zepp family and many more folks are praying for your healthy outcome. Keep fighting!

Elvis –30 years or so ago, I don’t remember where or what year, as time and the miles are catching up to me, I was at a club house and heard a few guys running down Russ Bellar. You calmly listened and then let them know they could step outside if they wanted to keep talking like that. I had no idea who you were. When I later found out I thought, “The world would be a better place if we all had friends like Marv Schmucker.” I really don’t know you well other than to say much more than “Hello” but as the years have gone by I have thought, “Not only coon hunting, but the world would be a better place with more guys like Marv Schmucker.” I have never had a chance to tell Bellar this and hope he appreciates your friendship and what a standup guy you are and have been over the years for him. I have heard nothing but good things about you for decades in a world and sport where some folks seem to relish in belittling others.

I love this sport and the people in it. When some of the kinds of posts that have been written on here are up it is never good for the sport or any of us. Coffee stops, quick stores, barber shops and sometimes internet boards are not where a lot of positive energy and common sense thinking usually takes place. I will not even pretend to know all the facts but I do know the folks in charge at UKC and am feel very confident the right decisions were made. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some of the things being said here are beyond out of line.

When I watch football games on TV I am amazed at all of the camera angles and slow motion shots when a penalty is called. One official sees it this way, another sees it a completely different way. Then Joe Buck and Troy Aikman ‘go to’ a studio host in New York for more analysis. I often wonder how there are so few problems in our sport, where in the middle of the night, on a cast, we are trying to “see” the “unseen” and determine what is going on by simply listening to the dogs.

I read the rule several times, and I did not see where it said “if the dog only goes 3 feet when turned loose don’t scratch it but if over 20 yards scratch the dog”. You turn the dog loose, it is a scratchable offense. Period. If you have a question about what was said by a judge let the panel know about it at the time not after the decision has been made or the next day. The cast was not even half way over when this occurred. I have seen guys up 500+ in an hour and then minused out twenty minutes later. The hour can catch a dog, treeing a possum or a host of other things. We will never know, but there was a lot of time left.

Rules are rules and sometimes are absolutely ridiculous but they are the rules. How many guys over the years got scratched for simply not signing their score card after their dog treed a coon by themselves to get to the top 20? Plenty!! It seemed to me like the MOH thought it was a badge of honor to scratch a guy for this instead of simply reminding everyone to sign the card before they placed it on the table as they arrived back to the club house. The results of many hunts were changed because of this rule but it did not generate much interest. I say again, losing at this level for any reason is extremely tough. I am 100% certain, that the guys hunting ole Demon and Striker back in their day would have questioned this rule, not given a dadgum about sportsmanship, and turned the world absolutely upside down if the scratch call was not made. It is a little too “rich for my taste” to imply or insinuate otherwise or try to drum up any kind of sympathy.

It is easy to be a GREAT winner, it is tough to be a good loser. There is so much disappointment, so many “what if’s?”, so many “What was I thinking?”, “Why didn’t I simply make that call?”. It is easy to make calls from the bleachers where things appear in slow motion, it is tough to do when you’re in the field and dogs are flying around and things are happening at lightning speed. Guys that make the finals for the most part live this sport about 600 days a year. They dream of winning a World Hunt and put the work int to make it happen. It takes a great dog and so many breaks along the way to just make it into the finals. Guys who are starting out and make it there assume it is easy to get that far and will be easy to get back again next year….they quickly find out there is nothing easy about it. It is tough on family life and relationships. I wish no one had to lose, but then on one would win!

Good Hunting Friends!!

__________________
Mark Zepp

Re: Elvis

quote:

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Originally posted by Night Shift
What would Russ do in this situation. I know what he would of done he would of done the same thing I would of done. It’s the handlers responsibility to make sure he understands the judge.

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I love that last sentence. I am going to plagiarize it. If no one loses then no one wins. In any cast you have to have 3 losers for every winner.

Thank you Mr. Zepp. The respect is mutual.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Zepp
First – Congratulations to everyone who made it to the finals in Peru, Indiana and a “thank you” to the UKC staff and Eukanuba for putting on a great hunt at a terrific facility.

Second - Steve Burkholder – I was looking forward to your World Hunt analysis and the Zepp family and many more folks are praying for your healthy outcome. Keep fighting!

Elvis –30 years or so ago, I don’t remember where or what year, as time and the miles are catching up to me, I was at a club house and heard a few guys running down Russ Bellar. You calmly listened and then let them know they could step outside if they wanted to keep talking like that. I had no idea who you were. When I later found out I thought, “The world would be a better place if we all had friends like Marv Schmucker.” I really don’t know you well other than to say much more than “Hello” but as the years have gone by I have thought, “Not only coon hunting, but the world would be a better place with more guys like Marv Schmucker.” I have never had a chance to tell Bellar this and hope he appreciates your friendship and what a standup guy you are and have been over the years for him. I have heard nothing but good things about you for decades in a world and sport where some folks seem to relish in belittling others.

I love this sport and the people in it. When some of the kinds of posts that have been written on here are up it is never good for the sport or any of us. Coffee stops, quick stores, barber shops and sometimes internet boards are not where a lot of positive energy and common sense thinking usually takes place. I will not even pretend to know all the facts but I do know the folks in charge at UKC and am feel very confident the right decisions were made. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Some of the things being said here are beyond out of line.

When I watch football games on TV I am amazed at all of the camera angles and slow motion shots when a penalty is called. One official sees it this way, another sees it a completely different way. Then Joe Buck and Troy Aikman ‘go to’ a studio host in New York for more analysis. I often wonder how there are so few problems in our sport, where in the middle of the night, on a cast, we are trying to “see” the “unseen” and determine what is going on by simply listening to the dogs.

I read the rule several times, and I did not see where it said “if the dog only goes 3 feet when turned loose don’t scratch it but if over 20 yards scratch the dog”. You turn the dog loose, it is a scratchable offense. Period. If you have a question about what was said by a judge let the panel know about it at the time not after the decision has been made or the next day. The cast was not even half way over when this occurred. I have seen guys up 500+ in an hour and then minused out twenty minutes later. The hour can catch a dog, treeing a possum or a host of other things. We will never know, but there was a lot of time left.

Rules are rules and sometimes are absolutely ridiculous but they are the rules. How many guys over the years got scratched for simply not signing their score card after their dog treed a coon by themselves to get to the top 20? Plenty!! It seemed to me like the MOH thought it was a badge of honor to scratch a guy for this instead of simply reminding everyone to sign the card before they placed it on the table as they arrived back to the club house. The results of many hunts were changed because of this rule but it did not generate much interest. I say again, losing at this level for any reason is extremely tough. I am 100% certain, that the guys hunting ole Demon and Striker back in their day would have questioned this rule, not given a dadgum about sportsmanship, and turned the world absolutely upside down if the scratch call was not made. It is a little too “rich for my taste” to imply or insinuate otherwise or try to drum up any kind of sympathy.

It is easy to be a GREAT winner, it is tough to be a good loser. There is so much disappointment, so many “what if’s?”, so many “What was I thinking?”, “Why didn’t I simply make that call?”. It is easy to make calls from the bleachers where things appear in slow motion, it is tough to do when you’re in the field and dogs are flying around and things are happening at lightning speed. Guys that make the finals for the most part live this sport about 600 days a year. They dream of winning a World Hunt and put the work int to make it happen. It takes a great dog and so many breaks along the way to just make it into the finals. Guys who are starting out and make it there assume it is easy to get that far and will be easy to get back again next year….they quickly find out there is nothing easy about it. It is tough on family life and relationships. I wish no one had to lose, but then on one would win!

Good Hunting Friends!!

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__________________
Dave Richards Treeing Walkers Reg American Saddlebred and Registered Rocky Mt. Show Horses

Well said Mark!! Great post
Thanks

__________________
“If everybody is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.”
― George S. Patton

Re: Biggest Loser

quote:

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Originally posted by Kler Kry
The BIGGEST LOSER is not Gerald Keegan and Russ Bellar!

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Nt Ch Fanny's Midnite Blue Annie - aka Sodie Pop R.I.P. - I will miss you old girl

Nt Ch Becky’s Midnite Blue Hank - R.I.P. Old Boy, thank you for the memories

Gr Nt Ch S&E's Midnite Lite Blue Snow (Co-Owned with my good friend Harry Eidenier) - We had a blast following you ole girl!