UKC Forums - Adviser vs. rule book

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- UKC Coonhounds (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4)
-- Adviser vs. rule book (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928510883)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-25-2018 12:16 AM:

That sure does look perfectly clear to my little pea brain. Sometimes I think that you can be too smart.

Posted by groworg1 on 10-25-2018 01:00 AM:

i still haven't heard a answer on the 2 bloody dogs when we heard a all out and out fight i guess they just stubbed there toes must have been the 2 with no blood who knows ?

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-25-2018 01:36 AM:

Rule says that when you have a dog fight you scratch the aggressor. If the aggressor is not known then you scratch "all dogs involved". Now someone would pretty much have to be on the cast to know what dogs were involved. With that said every cast I have been on every dog at the tree ended up getting scratched when a fight broke out.

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-25-2018 02:08 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
Fighting OR attempting to fight. To scratch for attempting to fight requires aggressive behavior AND interference.

Interference is not required to scratch a dog for fighting.

Donnie you also need to read the definition because it sure doesn't say or it says and.. One would presume so that dogs were actually scratched for fighting not for mere speculation or if no trouble had happened during the hunt (face barking or shouldering ect) if it didn't lead to a dog being interfered with. I didn't write these rules and not sure when they were but it's been that way for a long time. An English doctorate I do not have but reading comprehension I'm pretty good at, there are and & or are completely different. If people don't like how it is written then the best thing I can tell you is approach your breed reps for a change.
From what I hear from many hunters they have a serious problem with this wide open scratch not seeing what is happening whether it's a dog fight or off game. Especially since it was always their understanding that if they suspect a fight they can precede to a tree right then to investigate. And if your dog trees on a possum after the judge arrives you don't get scratched kinda makes you "scratch" your head.

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Posted by Toad Hill on 10-25-2018 02:34 AM:

Originally posted by Allen / UKC
Yeah, scratching for a growl alone would not meet the criteria of "attempting to fight"

What about if I got in your face at a hunt and told u who I thought u was and what u was gonna do and if you have a problem with me u can @#$&+$©©£"*;×¶∆∆€^°|~π√ !!!!!!!!¡!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And flinch towards ya !
Is that not attempting anything ? ??
Am I not " growling" ?

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 10-25-2018 02:47 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Donnie you also need to read the definition because it sure doesn't say or it says and.. .

I'm waving the white flag lol. I give.

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-25-2018 03:31 AM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
I'm waving the white flag lol. I give.

Add red and blue to it we are all on the same team!

Posted by Dave Richards on 10-25-2018 03:58 AM:

Jen Cummings

Lol. You may not have a PHD in English as you put it, but you certainly have a PHD in human nature. You maintain composure at all times when posting on this forum and show a great deal of wisdom in your discussions. Dealing with a bunch of coonhunter isn't an easy task, but you handle it wonderfully. Thank you. Dave

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Posted by Team Mafia 2 on 10-25-2018 07:31 AM:

After reading through these comments there is one rule that jumps out at me and that is scratching dogs without seeing what’s going on. I’m pretty laid back and easy to get a long with but I’m pretty certain I’d be on the Indefinite list if this happened at a hunt that meant something.

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Posted by Allen / UKC on 10-25-2018 03:00 PM:

You know what's interesting about some of these topics? Most rule definitions and scoring dogs based on using good judgement is not anything new. Far from it. Many of these "how to's" have been around since way before I came along. There's many things you're not required to, nor could you, prove 100% when judging dogs. Some situations simply require using sound judgement.

I'll bet many would find it interesting to go back to the 70's and 80's and read the monthly Advisor Columns written by the late Dale Brandenburger and Steve Fielder on some of these same topics. We might all be surprised to find a lot of "the more things change, the more they stay the same". I certainly find many of their writings interesting in that way. Sure, some things have changed but a lot has not.

Regardless, it's all good and even better in today's world where we have an avenue such as this forum where anyone can voice their personal opinions. Love it all except for when its used to throw stones at each other.

Posted by JiM on 10-25-2018 03:18 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Team Mafia 2
After reading through these comments there is one rule that jumps out at me and that is scratching dogs without seeing what’s going on. I’m pretty laid back and easy to get a long with but I’m pretty certain I’d be on the Indefinite list if this happened at a hunt that meant something.

Well, think back to the last time you saw or even heard about someone getting scratched for off game that wasn't seen and I think you will be safe about never getting on that list as long as you live. Or are you talking about SFF?

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 10-25-2018 03:52 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JiM
Well, think back to the last time you saw or even heard about someone getting scratched for off game that wasn't seen and I think you will be safe about never getting on that list as long as you live. Or are you talking about SFF?

The big concern is that now someone will. Until one of the latest advisor columns no one even knew this was possible or within the rules.

Posted by JiM on 10-25-2018 04:21 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
The big concern is that now someone will. Until one of the latest advisor columns no one even knew this was possible or within the rules.

Or you kidding me? The scratch for off game has been in the rule book forever. And that rule has never required the judge to see the off game.
I hope no one is lying awake in bed all night worrying about that one, they'll never see it happen.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-25-2018 04:41 PM:

Oh my goodness, I thought that everyone knew that you didn't have to see a dog fight to scratch dogs in UKC. I learned that 20 years ago at Autumn Oaks.
Three dogs were treed and a fight broke out. When we got to the tree, they had gone back to treeing. One handler was adamant that his dog was not involved and wanted the other 2 dogs scratched so he questioned the no call and we took it back to MOH. MOH said , was there a fight" and then, "which dogs were involved". We answered maybe but we didn't see it. MOH said, "all three are scratched". I learned that night that you didn't have to see the fight in UKC. Now in that other KC, you have to see the fight. Maybe if you want to hunt with "light broke" dogs and dogs that will run a deer for a mile and then fall off and tree a coon, you should stay on that side of the ocean. The Amateurs like dogs that are fun to hunt with.

Posted by Bob Hennessey on 10-25-2018 04:50 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC

Regardless, it's all good and even better in today's world where we have an avenue such as this forum where anyone can voice their personal opinions. Love it all except for when its used to throw stones at each other. [/B]

I've got a whole field of stones for anyone here that has run out of stones to throw. Come and pick all you want. Have all sizes. LOL!

Posted by nitehunter2004 on 10-25-2018 05:05 PM:

You guys/gals really want to take up space on the final rules ballet just to change a word from or to and, or must see. We only get a shot at this every 3 years.

Posted by JiM on 10-25-2018 05:24 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Bob Hennessey
I've got a whole field of stones for anyone here that has run out of stones to throw. Come and pick all you want. Have all sizes. LOL!

Geeze, around here these farmers pick stones and sell them to city folk for landscaping. Apparently, there's a ton of money in those fieldstones. With the price of corn and beans this year, some just till, pick stones and skip the planting.

Posted by Toad Hill on 10-25-2018 05:30 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Allen / UKC
You know what's interesting about some of these topics? Most rule definitions and scoring dogs based on using good judgement is not anything new. Far from it. Many of these "how to's" have been around since way before I came along. There's many things you're not required to, nor could you, prove 100% when judging dogs. Some situations simply require using sound judgement.

I'll bet many would find it interesting to go back to the 70's and 80's and read the monthly Advisor Columns written by the late Dale Brandenburger and Steve Fielder on some of these same topics. We might all be surprised to find a lot of "the more things change, the more they stay the same". I certainly find many of their writings interesting in that way. Sure, some things have changed but a lot has not.

Regardless, it's all good and even better in today's world where we have an avenue such as this forum where anyone can voice their personal opinions. Love it all except for when its used to throw stones at each other.

I hope your not referring to me for "throwing stones" cause thats not my intentions at all. If you feel that way i Apologize but what ever happened to giving the dog the benefit of the doubt ? Nothing different than a circle tree.
Im easy to get along with and fair.
I also will not scratch my dog your dog or anyone else's for total speculation of running trash. But Im like Jen, all this has Probably just opened up a new avenue for guys who is looking for 'Plan B" just in case they need that something extra in their bag of tricks to pull out if they are getting beat .
Also , if a dog growls on the lead i can assure u he'll growl and or do more on a tree when he is in adrenaline mode.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 10-25-2018 05:48 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Redneck Mafia
Donnie you also need to read the definition...

Oh my goodness, you actually got me to get my rulebook out and read it...
6. Scratching offenses
Dog Related Offenses
a.
b. For fighting "or" attempting to fight* during the authority of the judge.

Now when you go to the definitions

*18. Definitions
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing Aggressive Behavior "and" 2) interfering with another dog during the authority of the judge.

Now where in the world is the problem? Your dog can be scratched for fighting "or" attempting to fight, either one.
In order for your dog to be scratched for attempting to fight, your dog must show aggresive behavior "and" interfere with another dog's ability to hunt or tree. He can't be scratched for just showing aggresive behavior and he can't be scratched for just interfering.
With this wording you have to actually see the aggresive behavior to know if there is interference but you don't have to actually see a dog fight.
Now what would you change?

Posted by JiM on 10-25-2018 06:07 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert

*18. Definitions
Attempting to Fight: 1) Showing Aggressive Behavior "and" 2) interfering with another dog during the authority of the judge.

Now where in the world is the problem? Your dog can be scratched for fighting "or" attempting to fight, either one.
In order for your dog to be scratched for attempting to fight, your dog must show aggresive behavior "and" interfere with another dog's ability to hunt or tree. He can't be scratched for just showing aggresive behavior and he can't be scratched for just interfering.
With this wording you have to actually see the aggresive behavior to know if there is interference but you don't have to actually see a dog fight.
Now what would you change?

Now that's about as good as it could ever be explained.

Posted by Toad Hill on 11-07-2018 07:22 PM:

Oh my Goodness,,,
Few of you have definitely made me look at this differently.
Thanks for the "word study" !
It does change things.........

Posted by Redneck Mafia on 11-07-2018 08:20 PM:

Where most that I've talked to are having issue with the fighting
brought up by advisor August 2018 edition is that it doesn't meet the guidelines that have been laid out by the rules. The not having to see it to scratch leaves way to much room for corruption. If you are in a hunt and hear dogs blowing or maybe even fighting are they attempting to fight or fighting? What are they fighting each other or a coon or another animal that has came into the tree? You hear this commotion and now hear nothing, UKC has rules time rules to follow on how often a dog has to bark. Are dogs now rolled up on the ground or finishing off killing a coon? UKC has set guidelines to follow to head to a tree if a fight is suspected so that the culprit or culprits may be caught. It is unlikely that in a hunting judge situation that a dog would ever be scratched from a distance but giving a non-hunting judge this power is a different ball game, the same with scratching for off game that hasn't been seen.
The word "and" in the attempting to fight I'm sure was put there for a reason so that dogs are eligible except in more extreme situations to continue to hunt and unreasonable scratches to eliminate competition do not happen. Many of you are well aware of the scratch mentality engrained in way to many participants for the sole reason to eliminate the competition. Why give these types more power?

Posted by Robert Johnson on 11-14-2018 01:32 PM:

Also , if a dog growls on the lead i can assure u he'll growl and or do more on a tree when he is in adrenaline mode.

How can you be sure of this? YOU CAN"T BE. Speculation on your part, and that is not scratchable. Speculation only holds up in the eyes of the speculator. Now here is something that you can be sure of, a growling on the lead dog of mine won't be scratched. There is no interference, and the is no attempt to fight. Rules just don't allow what you are suggesting. Heck, if we can allow speculation, everyone else's dogs ran a deer, treed in a hole, babbled all the way to that tree we know was slick when they got there. Oh yeah, speculation can be really fun to hunt with huh?

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Posted by Redneck Mafia on 11-14-2018 05:10 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Robert Johnson
Rules just don't allow what you are suggesting. Heck, if we can allow speculation, everyone else's dogs ran a deer, treed in a hole, babbled all the way to that tree we know was slick when they got there. Oh yeah, speculation can be really fun to hunt with huh?

The rules or interpretation of them do allow for speculation, unfortunately. According to the August 2018 advisor you do not have to see it to scratch a dog for off game and you do not have to see it to scratch for a dog fight.

Posted by Robert Johnson on 11-14-2018 05:39 PM:

a growling dog be sure to fight later is speculation and that was the point of the post. As for the not seeing them fight, I agree you can scratch, as long as you know the two involved. If there are four dogs at a tree, and only two were fighting, and you can't see it, only hear it, you can not by the rules scratch them. It clearly says all involved, not all in area. That is a rule that is used wrong a lot in some areas of the country. JMO, but it counts a lot of times.

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