UKC Forums - Black and Tan Bones

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-- Black and Tan Bones (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928473456)

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2017 04:12 PM:

When I bred Boone to Cat, I knew that I wouldn't get any blk and tans. When I bred Wendy and Wilma to Jim, I knew that I wouldn't get any blk and tans. They were outcrosses. Surely you knew that when you linebred that line that you ran the risk of blk and tan pups.
But that doesn't really have anything to do with y'all blaming what y'all see as shortcomings in the Breed on "show people" or inability to register blk and tan pups as Redbones just because they are from 2 registered Redbone parents. Lack of drive or not hunting by themselves really has nothing to do with whether they are solid red or not. And inability to register 20 or 30 black and tan colored pups is not going to change a whole breed of 5,000 dogs.

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 02-08-2017 04:19 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver

So yes, a Black & Tan Redbone pup can be registered... as an X-Bred, and it CAN produce "purebred" purple ribben offspring... Redbone Coonhounds.
.

Seriously ?

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 04:27 PM:

Very much so Donnie.

Anybody that needs more information, here's a narrated PowerPoint that was put together when the X-Bred Program was released. If you hang in there until 9:40, you will see that Todd Kellam begins to speak on different situations where dogs would be X-Bred Registered. There are illustrated pedigrees to help present a visual too

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News...1182014114304AM

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 04:29 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lambert

But that doesn't really have anything to do with y'all blaming what y'all see as shortcomings in the Breed on "show people" or inability to register blk and tan pups as Redbones just because they are from 2 registered Redbone parents. Lack of drive or not hunting by themselves really has nothing to do with whether they are solid red or not. And inability to register 20 or 30 black and tan colored pups is not going to change a whole breed of 5,000 dogs.

I agree with that 100% Richard, that's what I was trying to say earlier lol You have such a way with words

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-08-2017 04:30 PM:

Corey Thanks

Corey Thanks I appreciate the info and respect your opinion... I hope it works out that way...
Deon

__________________
Old Time Grit Kennel
"Honesty Above All"
Deon Collins 270-985-8558
PR CH NITECH HTX Old Time Grit TSUNAMI (2 Win Toward Grand)
PR Old Time Grit Mystique (full sister to Tsunami)
PR Old Time Grit Slick (2 First RIP) (BANJoxHeidi)
NITECH Josie (Banjo III x Heidi)
PUP Rodeo Grit MaeB (GrNT May x Pigeon River Big Jim)
PUP RODEO GRIT LUNA (Penny x Pistol)

"If a dog can't tree a Coon by itself with out another dog or the owner walking it over a track it ain't a COONDOG".

"Without Grit You Can't Have A COONDOG"

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-08-2017 04:37 PM:

Richard ??????

Richard,
Show me what I line bred? And how can anyone know what they are going to get until they do it... Once again the old timers had it right... The B&T is a recessive gene and it will pop up from time to time... There have been litters where it was there and the exact same cross made again with none... Such as the recessive gene for the silver ones that pop up every now and then or the pink noses... You never know when it will pop up... Again I think the Xbreed is a good thing but there should never be a dog registered as a redbone that is an "off color" but if that x-breed dog is from two PR redbones and is breed to a PR redbone the red pups should be registered as redbones.. This is all am saying and Corey has said that is the way it is so I believe him.. UKC just needs to correct there site..

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-08-2017 04:38 PM:

The split between show dog lines and hunting dog lines happened when people who don't hunt or hardly ever hunt their dogs got serious about winning shows. Some, not all....just started targeted breeding programs that concentrated mainly on the qualities it takes to win top level shows and if those people rarely hunted or never hunted their dogs...the hunt ability was just not important or may not have even been known. In the late 80's and early 90's there were very few people that only showed dogs and never hunted them....but the shows got bigger and started getting more equal billing and promotion and the trophies got to be as big as the hunt trophies. More women and young people got involved and I started seeing people who were pretty much dedicated to showing only or if they did hunt...they had a separate line for hunting. Then in the early 90's I first heard the term Dual purpose hounds. That got to be pretty popular ....for a few years and quite a few people tried to breed a hunting dog that could show. But that didn't work out so well because instead of breeding two good looking dogs with strong hunting ability....too many folks bred good hunting dogs who were ugly to good show dogs with little or no hunting ability....and a lot of pups were produced that had a mix of both...but we're not great at neither. This went on for a several years and in my opinion...it set back both groups of dogs for awhile until the breeders of both groups started to realize it's easier to target one thing or the other. For the past 15 to 20 years...that's when the devide has really become noticeable. The top level, big winning, serious show people started targeting the traits they needed to win shows and the top level serious competition hunters started targeting the hunt winning traits they needed to win in competition hunts. Now there are still some who breed for a dual purpose redbone...and win in both categories but there are not many. Ann and Aubrey Butler and Rob and Kat Childers come to mind and I'm sure there are a few others I'm not thinking about.
It's just a natural progression to me. People adapt to overcome....and breeders will adapt to overcome traits that stand in their way of winning competition shows or competition hunts.
When I talk about show breeders setting back hunting stock...I don't mean they did it with malice...
In fact...I'm sure it wasn't even their actions that caused the problem. It was the people who took a complete show bred dog and bred it to a complete hunt bred dog that actually produced the offspring that usually are not great in either category in their attempt to create a "dual purpose" redbone that did the real damage...because every one of those dogs have weak links in their ancestry from the other side that will show up for many generations. For all the praise or negative thoughts on all Grand Nite pedigrees....one thing is for certain when you have a three, four, or five generation all Grand Nite pedigree....you know every dog in that pedigree for generation after generation is from competition hunting stock. Maybe some were not your style or to your liking...but they were competition winning hunting stock.
Same goes with a multi generation all Grand show pedigree...you know that every one of those were purpose bred show winning dogs. When I see a pedigree like that...it tells me that if weak links are back in there...they are probably far back. A dog like that now gives me a foundation to build on several more generations that I can make dang sure there are no weak links in the generations that I add on in the future. Now before anyone gets their undies in a twist....a breeder can do this with non titled dogs too...but to be sure he would have had to been around a long time and hunted with most of those pr dogs to actually see for himself that the dog actually had the traits to win in competion...otherwise...your just guessing. I know a few dogs each year title who probably shouldnt...that's the standard argument from people who say titles don't matter. But dogs who make grand Nite and win big hunts...who are out of a long line of dogs who also made grand Nite and won big hunts are most definitely competition hunt bred dogs for many generations...that just can't be argued. Using dogs like this is in my opinion the best option competition hunt breeders have to slowly and methodically weed out the undesired traits we don't want in our competition lines and concentrate and strengthen the traits we do want...the ones that allow our breed to beat other breeds in competition. That's the principals my program is based on and I know a lot of others who seem to follow that same course as well, although some not as strictly or with other techniques they are trying.
We have to admit there has been a bit of a problem within the breed concerning certain weaknesses that we would like to eliminate...before we can figure out a solution. I have a plan...but so does everyone else and we all think ours is best...lol. but with so many people breeding for different things and trying so many different things...it causes everything to get drawn way out...over decades and many generations of dogs. I'm sure that will never change...but individual teams of like minded breeders who have a similar goal will really help speed up the process. That's why I encourage people to pick a group of other hunters that have a similar goal as your own and work together to produce, start, train, and then prove those offspring in competition....if better competition dogs are your goal. At some point, these different teams can cross over and work together to add traits that one or the other have concentrated enough that it is dominant enough to stick in your line.
To me...this is how we climb our way to the top of the competition world. It won't be easy...but then again, nothing worth having ever is
Good luck everybody...it's a new year...let's make it a good one for the redbones!

__________________
Shane Maxey
Proud lifetime member of the NRA
Banshee Wildlife Products
Hoosier Outlaw / Moonlight Redbones
1994 American Redbone Coonhound Association Hunter of the Year
My first 3 redbones raised from pup's were:
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Billy the Kid
Dual Gr.Ch.- PKC Ch. Outlaw Timber Girl
Dual Gr.Ch. Outlaw Scarlett Fever
(((( Current Favorites ))))
2013 AKC Ladies World Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch.- PKC Ch- AKC Ladies World Ch Ky Moonlight Breanna
Gr.Nt.Ch. - PKC Ch. Ky Moonlight Woody
Dual Grand Moonlight Deana
Dual Grand Ch.- PKC Ch. Moonlight AfterShock
Dual Grand Nighty Night Amber
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Big Time Britt
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Billy Jean
Gr.Nt.Ch-PKC Ch.-2015 PKC Red Days Champ Outlaw Cherry Bomb
Gr.Nt.Ch Outlaw Breeze
Gr.Nt.Ch.Gr.Ch. All Grand Outlaw G-Man (over $20.000 won in PKC & CHKC) 2019 Southern Redbone Days Overall Champion
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Outlaw Mac
Gr.Nt.Ch. Classy Cali (Heavy Outlaw bred)
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Cat Scratch Fever
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Addiction
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Overdose
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Jinx
Gr.Nt.Ch. Moonlight Banshee
"Always outnumbered...Never outgunned!"
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as Shenandoah Maxey

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 02-08-2017 04:44 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Jack Bingham
Here's a good example of a dog from 2 PR bred redbones. I personally think he looks cool. i'd love to have one that looks like it.

[/URL]

I don't want to single anybody out just using this as an example. So if this dog produced some pups that met the color standard for the breed UKC puts "PR" status back on those papers ?

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2017 04:51 PM:

Re: Richard ??????

quote:
Originally posted by Deon Collins
Richard,
And how can anyone know what they are going to get until they do it.......

. Again I think the Xbreed is a good thing but there should never be a dog registered as a redbone that is an "off color" but if that x-breed dog is from two PR redbones and is breed to a PR redbone the red pups should be registered as redbones.. This is all am saying and Corey has said that is the way it is so I believe him.. UKC just needs to correct there site..

Oh my goodness, seriously?

But I agree wholeheartedly on the second part. But everyone should be aware that if there is a X-bred dog in their dogs pedigree, they run the risk of off colored pups. In the past you had to do some research to figure out your risk.

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-08-2017 04:53 PM:

Donnie, that's the way I understood what Corey said.
But to do that...I'm sure you will see more of that color down the line and each time they would have to be registered as x breed. I'm not sure why anyone would want to strengthen an off colored trait like that. Most over the years have tried to eliminate it. If a trait like that can show up from 6 or 7 gen's back....you can imagine the stuff that shows up with a weak female or strictly show bred dog in the first 3 or 4 generations. Every ancestor matters!

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-08-2017 05:09 PM:

Richard I am serious

Show me how Tsunami x Cat is a line bred cross.. I want to know.. I have studied their papers pretty close and I can't see it.. I never have a problem admitting when I am wrong and always will to learn so please show me...

Tsunami is from Doc, Kate, Bo TC Annie on top and Doc, YR Daisy, Stepps Little Pepper, Kate on Bottom...

Cat is:

....................Nite Ch Little Red Fireball III
..........NITECH Meltons Red Banjo
....................PR Camp Creek Sue
CH GRNITECH Vaughns Red Banjo III
....................????
..........PR Meltons Redmans Meg
....................????

....................GRNITE GRCH Hoffmeisters Rusty Red
..........GRNITECH Bunch's Flat Woods Red Hawk
....................GRCH Gorham's Twin Oak Long Tall Sally
NITECH CH Muddy Creek Hightest Heidi
....................NITECH Rutter's Pine Meadow Amos
..........NITE CH Butternut Creek Red Shady
....................CH NITECH Noss' So Mtn Showtime Molly

Posted by Adam Wingler on 02-08-2017 05:27 PM:

Jack, what cross made that dog? He's a good looking sucker but that's odd as heck.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2017 05:33 PM:

Deon, check your PM box. I didn't want to say that I am sorry in public.

Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 05:40 PM:

Shane...I would breed to that because unlike some in this thread I am breeding to get the best REDBONE hmmmm how bout strain regardless of color that will HUNT. Richard knows the truth, he pointed to it himself. Do I know that the possibilty of getting an off colored pup is HIGHLY possible? I do now. Will it stop me from making that cross again? NO!!! Proof there are two set of different folks in the breed, both breeding for their desires. THANKS AGAIN UKC for allowing both to achieve their goals. Now back to the thought....WHEN, oh WHEN will the other events start having HOUND events? Yep, I am pointing to the SHOW only dogs. I don't have a problem with them. However, their standard shouldn't be dictating to us. If so, then shouldn't ours be reflective of theirs. My standard is that of having a hunting characteristic....something I believe is being put as a recessive gene, much like the off color in mine and others.

Posted by Richard Lambert on 02-08-2017 05:57 PM:

I thought that shows already had a dual champion class? And don't the Breed days have a show on Friday for dogs that hunted on Thursday night? I don't understand. I just hope that no one tells Nt Ch Wilma that she is a show dog.

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/out...759c74.jpg.html

Posted by Deon Collins on 02-08-2017 05:58 PM:

Thanks Richard...

Im out.... The horse is for sure dead and as of right now nothing has changed... I appreciate Corey clearing things up for me.. One of the best dogs I ever owned died on 20 February 2016... PR Old Time Grit Slick scored 562 at SRBD.. I only had the pleasure of owning him for about 5 months but he was a COONDOG... My point is if you like your hound... Enjoy him and don't worry what others think because every night you unsnap that lead, make that tree, sit on a stump and listen to him run may be the last time.. I also lost my Mentor and hunting partner Ron Wyatt on 14 Sept so enjoy your fellow hunter too.... Everyone be safe in the woods...

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 05:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Donnie Stevens
I don't want to single anybody out just using this as an example. So if this dog produced some pups that met the color standard for the breed UKC puts "PR" status back on those papers ?

Donnie, you are correct.

Ironically enough, that dog in the picture has already produced registered Redbone offspring.

And for everyone that is curious, he is off of GRNITECH 'PR' Locked N Loaded Pebble!

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by HERSHSHUNTIN on 02-08-2017 06:34 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver
Very much so Donnie.

Anybody that needs more information, here's a narrated PowerPoint that was put together when the X-Bred Program was released. If you hang in there until 9:40, you will see that Todd Kellam begins to speak on different situations where dogs would be X-Bred Registered. There are illustrated pedigrees to help present a visual too

http://www.ukcdogs.com/Web.nsf/News...1182014114304AM

I spend half the night trying to post this ukc video, and then gave up Corry--lots of good info on the Xbred there.
What surprised me was there is no info on the Xbred procedures in the new official UKC coonhound rulebook

__________________
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hershtwo@yahoo.com
Life member NRA
Current dogs
GR CH NT CH RED MIGHTY 90-Bo/Sierra
NT.CH.GR CH BEYOND BILLY HTX --Billy the Kid/ Amber
GR CH 1ST & 2ND place wins 90/4 LIFE GUN-HTX==-Willy BOY/Bigtime Britt
Dogs I have owned
Nt ch Gr ch HERSHS HUNTIN RED IKE
NT CH CH HERSHS HUNTIN BUDDY
GR NT CH MILLERS DIRTY RED
NT CH CH LYNN'S CREEK JULIE
GR CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED KATE
CH NITE CH AMBRAW RIVER TIMBER ROCK
NT CH HERSHS HUNTIN RED CLEM
NT CH ROCKY TOP CHERRY

Posted by Donnie Stevens on 02-08-2017 06:56 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Corey Gruver
Donnie, you are correct.

Ironically enough, that dog in the picture has already produced registered Redbone offspring.

And for everyone that is curious, he is off of GRNITECH 'PR' Locked N Loaded Pebble!

Ya see now I wish I hadn't even asked.

__________________
Friends don't let friends hunt blueticks

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 07:01 PM:

Herschel

I think the reason you might not see it in there is just because it deals specifically with registration. I'm not sure on that one, I'll have to crack open the new rule book and take a look for myself.

I think the topic of conversation is diverging into two separate issues on this thread. Inadvertently they are related, but I think everyone has done a good job of specifying specific information that we all need to heed to help our breed along in the future.

I was speaking more to the "off-color" topic more so then I was the diverging of hunting stock and show stock within the breed. Yes, there has been a split, and anyone that has been around longer then I, like Shane or Richard, probably witnessed it happening first hand.

Like Shane said, the problem has been competition. In order to succeed at national level events on a consistent basis, you almost need to specialize in the event you want to win in the most. It makes a lot of sense. That's why people choose to breed either consistent winning show dogs or consistent winning hunting dogs. True dual purpose redbones are in the minority, in my opinion, but they dog exist. Just look at Reverend Red or Comstock's Red Lightning.

I think I agree with what Shane said the most, in that between high caliber hunting stock, high caliber show stock and dual purpose dogs, live the mediocre dogs. These dogs might not fit the standard to a T and they may not be dogs that display highly valued, strong hunting traits we all desire to see out of our own dogs.

The fact of th matter is, with this issue on its own, it would probably be worth our time to develop some sort of standard that encompasses both aspects of our breed. The physical make up that will help the dogs do their job most efficiently, and the non-physical side of hunting traits and abilities, instinct and whatever else you would like to lump in there. The true dual purpose dogs are the 'Golden Mean', to quote Aristotle

Now on to the separate issue of "off-color". I agree with the fact that if you breed off color hounds, you will increase the odds of producing off colored puppies. Do I think that is something the breed should strive for? No by at all. But at the same time, it would and will be hard to eliminate the recessive genes that cause these color combinations to happen.

For example, the red and white male pictured above. That dog has five littermates that are all solid red, and three other littermates that are "off-colored". They all have one thing in common, they all carry the same genes. Four of them just display the recessive. So, should the solid red pups not be bred, for the simple fact that hey carry these recessive genes? It depends. If they display what I think are traits worthy of being bred, and make great coondogs, why shouldn't they? The fact is, a lot of people aren't going to pay attention or recognize if their dog does carry these pesky recessive genes, and like Shane said, every ancestor counts, so there is probably a lot of that sort of stuff in them already.

All I was trying to say was that I don't think it's a huge deal that our redbones today throw these kinds of pups. I don't think it should inhibit anyone from doing what they are doing in the breeding pen. However, I might be the minority in thinking that if I can get better traits from an off colored dog from a particular Redbone cross, now that UKC has the X-Bred program, I dont think I would be afraid to breed to that dog if I really needed what he had or she had to offer.

And don't be offended if your off-color puppy can't be registered as a redbone. That's the number one complaint I hear from guys with these kinds of pups. That's what I meant by the butt-hurt comment I made in my original post. If they don't meet the standard, they are going to be registered X-Bred. Period.

Just my two cents... might be three cents with how long my post is...

I still have a lot to learn from you old fellas that have been with the breed for eons. I'm eager and willing to learn

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 07:36 PM:

Corry, your last post hit the nail on the head with my thoughts. THANK YOU

However, the otherside of the coin is that with our breeding we produce what SHOULD be what we are looking for at the club level...COON HOUND first and looks 2nd. How can we expect to draw new folks in if they purchase a high dollar dog that was bred to look good first and may very likely not hunt gets discouraged and puts a bad taste in any newbies thoughts, both for the club and the bree/breeder.

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 08:03 PM:

I certainly agree with that friend, since I hunt more so then show myself.

The point I'm trying to make is that there should be balence.

My original post made the comment about how a Bassett Hound would never be able to keep up with a competition style redbone in the hunts, simply because it wasent as effiecently built for the job.

If we start to focus on hunting ability solely, we will be cutting off our own noses to spite our faces. A dog can have all the ability in the world, but without the equipment to do the job, he's just like the Basset Hound hunting against Cali, Shine and Boone. He'll never be able to compete.

The standards we have written currently give us guidelines as to how the physical make up of the dog should be to effiencently so it's job.

Bear in mind too, the national level show dogs today exemplify these standards, BUT most of the individual parts are exaggerated for the show ring. These traits become exaggerated when particular dogs win because of particular traits, i.e., this dog has better feet so that's why he keeps winning. Winning dogs get bred. That is fact. And that's how these traits start to drift away from their original purpose and the standards original intent.

In essence, the big winning show dogs are not the mean. And likewise, the big winning hunt dogs are not the mean, when compared to our written standards. We need to find middle ground, follow the standard and breed for highly valued hunting traits. We can't forsake one for the other, otherwise we will lose ourselves in the fray.

I do agree that hunting ability should come before all else, but breeding to the standard should be as essential within the process. Otherwise, we might as well just hunt Walker dogs or Bassett Hounds

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by Hoosier Outlaw on 02-08-2017 08:32 PM:

You explained the root cause and effect very well. I too feel like we can't get too far off track with our hunting stock when it comes to overall composition because eventually it would physically limit what our hunting dogs are able to do. But, I feel like that problem is self correcting because once that starts to happen and performance suffers...the breeders of hunting strains will alter their course and go back to the best specimens. If a line starts having physical problems and it slows it down to the point it can no longer compete...breeders of competition dogs will lose interest in that line and move on.
But show dogs are a little different....I don't see anything that would pull them back to the center by breeding out hunting ability in favor of color and overall physical composition....so I can see them losing most of their hunting ability over many generations if bred only for showing. I don't want anyone to misunderstand me....I do like a good looking well made dog. But I cannot own one like that if it doesn't meet my minimum standards for hunting ability...I just can't. To me, because I am breeding for better competition dogs, off color, bad feet, too short, too tall....none of that is as important to me as drive, accuracy, speed on track and quick locating ability. So until I can get all those traits concentrated in 80% or more of the pups I produce....I feel like I got bigger fish to fry than trying to make pretty dogs.... that's why most of mine are ugly

Posted by Corey Gruver on 02-08-2017 08:44 PM:

Shane

Didn't you breed Dual Grand G-Man?? He's not ugly at all! I can't say the same for Tony though

I think we all understand completely the issues that come from deviating from the written standards. I myself just have a hard time believing that I as a modest breeder know what is best for the entire breed, or more so then the people that originally created the standards and essentially started the breed!

However, the topic of discussion was originally "off color" and I think I've explained well enough how these dogs can continue to survive within our breeding stock and in the competitions.

The real question remains though, will we start to see more off colored redbones being registered as X-Bred Coonhounds? And will guys utilize them within their breeding programs if they think it is in the best interest of the breed and their breeding programs??

Anybody care to take a swing at that?

__________________
Corey Gruver
Greenville, PA
(724) 456-6813

Posted by ibrobiinhood on 02-08-2017 10:20 PM:

Thank you for the words Corey. I don't believe yours and Shane's desire is to far from mine. As I said, I wouldn't want feed a dog like the one Wade has but IF it could improve on what I have I would breed to him. Hmmm, wonder what a puppy would be like coming out of him and Cali. All Red as desired? Alot of white? One thing is certain and I'd bet my last dollar on it....they'd be coon dogs, not all competition dogs BUT coon dogs none the less.

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