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-- Direct from UKC Legal Counsel (http://forums.ukcdogs.com/showthread.php?threadid=928409685)

Posted by Todd K / UKC on 02-23-2015 01:54 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by walkerman75
the term 4 legged is already in the existing bill kentucky has.. if thats the sole reason people are complaining we should have had this arguement along time ago

This is one of the points I wanted to make sure that people understand. The definition of four-legged animal is not being added to the bill. It already existed. The definition of the exemptions is not new. Already existed.

As Sara pointed out, what is new is the expansion of who can be held accountable for fighting animals and the fact that it now becomes a felony. This discussion would make more sense if we were discussing whether or not this should be considered a felony. Because I don't think it's the wording of "owns, possesses, keeps, breeds, sells or transfers" that is concerning people. This whole discussion so far centers around items that already exist in the current law.

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 02-23-2015 01:59 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by teamX
The fact is todd if you dont like the wording NOBODY at UKC should support it in anyway until it is changed to were there is no way it can harm anyone but dog fighters.Dont leave loopholes.We put our trust in people like you.

And I put my trust in someone like Sara who understands animal law and legal procedures better than I do. That's not my area of expertise. I'll be the first to admit it. I've already posed to her all of the same questions you all are asking. I trust her expertise on the subject.

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 02-23-2015 02:14 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JOEL HINSON

It is true HSUS is against all hunters stand for and they have payed staff in each state. I live in South Carolina and have met with the HSUS representative while at the state house concerning animal shelter legislation. I agree with UKC that there will be times that even enemies have to agree especially on an issue that is right.

Joel, I give you a lot of credit. I had the hardest time understanding this concept and I will admit, at times I still do. But, it is true. And I'm thankful there are people smarter than I in this regard with a cooler head.

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Posted by blackflagginit on 02-23-2015 02:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
As Sara pointed out, what is new is the expansion of who can be held accountable for fighting animals and the fact that it now becomes a felony.

and that is where the problem lays.

as for the hunting exemption. I still maintain that only the hunting act (ie the dog/dogs killing a coon in season) are exempt under the wording. 2 dogs fighting over a dead coon or the tree wouldn't be if the wrong people got ahold of it.

even if it was or the wording was changed so it was.........that still doesn't answer the question of LGDs, herd dogs and the like.

as for what was in the law before...........if its going to be changed anyway why not fix those problems before they become problems and some unintended party ends up in court over bad wording. Im not the first to ask these questions, even some of the reps in Kentucky have asked the same questions or similar in there opposition to the bill.

I understand why she gave you the advice she did. its her job to protect UKCs best interest, not the best interest of hunting in general. UKC is wider than just its hunting program. its bad PR if it comes out UKC opposed a dog fighting bill. that's also why the legal team for say PKC or KHA gave different advice. I understand it, but I still don't agree with her.

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Posted by Todd K / UKC on 02-23-2015 02:27 PM:

Re: UKC

quote:
Originally posted by seldom seen
I understand and appreciate all of the commotion this subject has caused. I will start by saying in no way do I support this bill since there are already laws to remedy this problem. I do want to make a point in saying this. Please do some research on those whom you are condemning. I went to the US Sportsman Alliance to look to see if the UKC is a business sponsor. They are the only coonhound registry that has a business membership and while I was looking there is not a single business that is listed in the "Dog Supply Vendors" that has a business membership. Doug

Another good point. UKC works closely with USSA. The strongest defender of hunter's rights in this country. I have to believe that if they had a concern with this bill being anti-hunting legislation we would know about it. And I was not aware that we are the only register that supports them but I am glad we do and encourage the others to do the same.

__________________
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Posted by bobbycagle1 on 02-23-2015 02:32 PM:

Thanks Todd.

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Posted by gasserdogs on 02-23-2015 02:48 PM:

hb154

im gonna start breeding for a six legged dog that way I'm exempt!! just in case mine might kill a coon . the only foot ukc has to stand on in this is it says( while hunting.) what about the neighbors cat that sits in your yard at the end of the dogs chain length one day gets too close now the owner of dog has 2 charges cause of being land owner and dog owner. or say a squirell runs across my back yard as i let dog outside and dog catches it neighbor sees it reports it now im charged with felony. dog fighting is dog fighting and i understand felony for that as long as that was the intent. accidental dog fighting or land owner should not be liable UKC NEEDS TO WAKE UP. A GOOD LAWYER WILL HAVE A HAY DAY WITH THIS BILL

__________________
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Posted by berger on 02-23-2015 02:51 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Emily
It doesn't take a genius to realise that HSUS, PETA and the like consider coyote hunting with hounds to be a form of dog fight--they say that explicitly all over the Internet. We are talking about people who don't understand the natural world, and don't want us to do what we do with hounds. To me, there is a huge difference between putting two domesticated animals in a confined space to fight to the death and letting a hunting dog catch its wild quarry on the ground.
This proposed law does not capture that difference and should not be supported by UKC.
Even if all the other states already did use this language==and that is a highly dubious claim-- it glosses over the critical difference between our registered hounds and what they hunt. There is no logic to claiming that 49 (or 5) wrongs make a right. We are proud of our hounds and what they are bred to do with considerable heart and passion.
We are happy to see UKC take a stand against dog fighting, but that's not the only thing this bill does. What this bill does is make the difference between dog fighting and hound hunting a difference of degree, not a difference in kind, and once you've done that, the line can be moved easily, leaving your registry in a shambles and our sport endangered.

Very well said.
Simple reason this Bill needs to be squashed.

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Posted by dawgg03 on 02-23-2015 02:52 PM:

All it takes is a judge that sees things as they do and then all of us are guilty!! If it's not all black and white they can and will read in to it any way they want. If Someone sees a coon shot out and my aim was off it fights with dogs ! I'm getting a visit form the local cops and a court date with the judge that don't like hunters bam felony or a very large fine. Judge say you should know better your dog is registered with UKC and they stand against this. Now is this what UKC is doing now? No but don't think for a min that it's not how their taking it or will make it sound.Interpretation has to be clear. What message have you sent to these people? Free casting our dogs is hard enough now without them helping out. I was on a hunt (UKC ) last year guy shot at us several times. We were legal and not trespassing but he didn't like what we were doing so he thought he could do what ever it took to make us stop. Husu ever stop to think about if we didn't have a season limit on raccoons? What a horrible death they would face from sickness and it may effect their pets. Or how coyotes are killing so many fawn deer it's effcting the herds in a negative way. Do they stand on a hill at night and here what coon hunters here packs of coyotes everywhere. The way the world is growing they will come to terms one day when they ban our hunting what they see will be a lot uglier than what they put on our backs as game managers not killers.

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Posted by berger on 02-23-2015 03:06 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by JOEL HINSON

It is true HSUS is against all hunters stand for and they have payed staff in each state. I live in South Carolina and have met with the HSUS representative while at the state house concerning animal shelter legislation. I agree with UKC that there will be times that even enemies have to agree especially on an issue that is right.

One thing you forgot to mention. Is that HSUS will Never agree against anything that there agenda stands for. The only way to agree with them is to stand with them. No matter how Right we are they will Never agree against there agenda.

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Home of Tree Jar'n Coonhound Kennels

319-201-8445

Posted by Chiggers on 02-23-2015 03:14 PM:

HSUS was rated the number one high impact animal organization by 169 experts in the field, in a survey by Philanthropedia.[6] The group's current major campaigns target five issues: factory farming, animal fighting, the fur trade, puppy mills, and wildlife abuse.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humane...e_United_States

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Posted by carter on 02-23-2015 03:59 PM:

Todd just keeps on digging a hole for himself and UKC. It will be a cold day in hell for him and UKC to admit that they were wrong. Just look at the Poll taken here. When your wrong your wrong lol.

Posted by HOBO on 02-23-2015 04:07 PM:

I can't believe how some of you are attacking Todd. I don't know if many of you have met him and consider him a friend or not, but I do. In no way shape form or fashion would I get on an open forum and attack someone like some of you have. If you have problems with Todd you should use the private message system that is setup on this board and hash it out in private. Attacking Todd and UKC out in the open the way some of you are is just giving more fuel for the fire.

Attack me if you wish, but I think some of you need to think before you post.

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Posted by blackflagginit on 02-23-2015 04:14 PM:

HOBO,

I have met him and do in fact consider him a friend (and I hope he thinks the same) in fact there was a time I was going to send Looser for him to hunt in MI. I trust him that much.

I hope anything I say isn't taken as a personal attack on him ( and regret the one personal attack I DID make against sara chisnell btw) or an attack on UKC in general. like I said above, I don't agree with there position or with the advice she gave, i don't agree with it but i understand it.

Posted by gasserdogs on 02-23-2015 04:24 PM:

The proposed bill would add the following wording to expand the class of ANIMAL FIGHTERS who can be chargedREAD BETWEEN THE LINES ukc)

"Any person who knowingly owns, possesses, keeps, breeds, trains, sells, or otherwise transfers a four-legged animal for the purpose of that animal or its offspring being used to fight for pleasure or profit is guilty of cruelty to animals in the first degree." doesnt all of these situations apply to some one that may have participated in one of your events. and their dog may have been in a scuffle whether intentional or not and scratched for fighting it would still fall under this law.!!! and at that time now becomes a felon!

__________________
Dan Hickman

Posted by dawgg03 on 02-23-2015 04:53 PM:

Hobo your right!!!! Nobody needs to make it a personal attack. Keep it to UKC.

__________________
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I use Sunfire lights

Posted by carter on 02-23-2015 05:33 PM:

Who has made personal attacks on Todd? UKC runs a business do they not? Todd is employed by UKC is he not? When Todd speaks on here or anybody else employed by UKC they are representing UKC if I am correct and when I speak towards him and UKC it is all business. I have said nothing and I have read nothing that has been a personal attack on Todd. Some of you may interpret it as so but that's just not the case here.

Posted by high ridge on 02-23-2015 05:41 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by high ridge
We are not all states. What's good for one is not good for all. We know that.

Todd ,

Above all I know you are a hunter. I know you are not a supporter of groups that would jeopardize our rights. I feel you are caught in a bad spot. You will take some heat in your position for this,but I honestly feel you see the hunters side. I only hope you can do enough damage control to put the fire out on this one,because it is starting to blaze. A simple letter like the other club sent in,or for goodness sake take it off the UKC sight and cut affiliation.

To change wording takes lobbyist as we all know. I feel UKC has enough power and contacts to lobby for an amendment.

__________________
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Posted by NiteHeat on 02-23-2015 05:46 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by thomasg
once upon a time cock fighting was a southern tradition game cocks were passed down kept in the family much like the family silver and grandmas ring I still recall the day the papa gave me mine he said don't sell em keep em pure just like they been the last 100 years don't let em get away from ya then the animal rights agenda got a bill and law passed in ark I watched horrified out the window in the middle of the night at the blue lights and armed men as they swooped in on me like I was a james gang member they took my birds to the pound where they out of ignorance put them in a pin together when the sun come up before the caretakers could make pets out of em the game cocks true to generations of care and breeding had fought to the death with only 2 left so badly damaged they put em to sleep charges were dropped 4 lack of evidence I still remember how the police talked about just getting a warrant 4 the dogs and comin 4 them latter I had 2 walker hounds think it cant happen to you better fight any law that intrudes on anything you hold dearly look how easy the heath care insurance law passed despite all the negative response to it whats next your guns and your dogs

youre a derelict who cant even put a sentence together. You comparing your hick family fighting birds means NOTHING and has NOTHING to do with being a houndsman. You and your kind have hurt country ways and hunting by keeping and fighting those birds. Youre no different than the thug that fights pitbulls. In fact, in my eyes youre even worse because you have hounds. I wish they would have hooked up your trailer and took you away when they took your birds too. Youre no redneck martyr, youre the lowest of the low.

Posted by berger on 02-23-2015 05:53 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by HOBO
I can't believe how some of you are attacking Todd. I don't know if many of you have met him and consider him a friend or not, but I do. In no way shape form or fashion would I get on an open forum and attack someone like some of you have. If you have problems with Todd you should use the private message system that is setup on this board and hash it out in private. Attacking Todd and UKC out in the open the way some of you are is just giving more fuel for the fire.

Attack me if you wish, but I think some of you need to think before you post.

Hobo I agree, though at times when what you love to do get's attacked people react, Now if they had a law degree and a little more politically correct then they might be able to call you names without really doing it or not be so obvious about it.

Like this
QUOTE]Originally posted by S Chisnell

I hope you will all actually read this and understand where we are coming from, and understand what this law actually says and does, [/QUOTE]

or this

quote:
[i]

The proposed bill would add the following wording to expand the class of animal fighters who can be charged:

"Any person who knowingly owns, possesses, keeps, breeds, trains, sells, or otherwise transfers a four-legged animal for the purpose of that animal or its offspring being used to fight for pleasure or profit is guilty of cruelty to animals in the first degree."

[/B]

Just wondering did you catch that.

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Posted by high ridge on 02-23-2015 05:57 PM:

If I read it right it means I could be a top class citizen that raises a breed of dog that I like. I could sale it to someone who decides to fight it. Then I am guilty. I did not knowingly know they would fight it but I knowingly knew that breed was used to fight.

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Posted by buck brush on 02-23-2015 06:26 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by Todd K / UKC
, with a cooler head.

Please do not up set Todd I have seen him upset you will not like it, I believe Todd and UKC is doing what they feel is right, and was just wondering where all the people that is doing the complaining received there law degree???

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Posted by sonnyr on 02-23-2015 06:27 PM:

hb154

Yes you will be and the Kennel club might be because they
may have profited from a dog transfer.
Todd I know you support all hunters but someone did not check into this before supporting this bill .

Posted by high ridge on 02-23-2015 06:29 PM:

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Posted by blackflagginit on 02-23-2015 06:32 PM:

quote:
Originally posted by NiteHeat
youre a derelict who cant even put a sentence together. You comparing your hick family fighting birds means NOTHING and has NOTHING to do with being a houndsman. You and your kind have hurt country ways and hunting by keeping and fighting those birds. Youre no different than the thug that fights pitbulls. In fact, in my eyes youre even worse because you have hounds. I wish they would have hooked up your trailer and took you away when they took your birds too. Youre no redneck martyr, youre the lowest of the low.

o get a grip. I have never in my life saw 2 roosters in the same yard who could resist finding out who was king of the sandbox. its what they do, they don't care about our little fuzzy feelings. fighting bred or not.

the time for our hound bloodlines being handed down is coming to the same end as those of the roosters he spoke of and by the same people. though if the truth were out, 20yrs after the cock fighting ban was passed here in Missouri there are as many rings as there ever were. they just keep it quieter.

passing a law has NEVER driven any act or practice into extinction, just into the shadows.

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